How to Set & Achieve Massive Goals | Alex Honnold

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber.

Andrew Huberman: He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind, El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3,000-foot climb in Yosemite National Park. It was also, of course, the topic and focus of the incredible movie "Free Solo," which if you haven't seen, you absolutely should watch. I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now. I'm not a rock climber. I've tried it a few times. But I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training and his broader philosophy on life.

Andrew Huberman: My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of El Cap, and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history. And of course, the free solo of El Cap is extremely high-risk and high-consequence. Today, we discuss how to envision and make progress towards your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big or long challenges of any kind.

Andrew Huberman: Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach. We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life and why most people hide from that reality, and as a result, end up living much smaller lives than they otherwise would. We also discuss training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally.

Andrew Huberman: And that takes us into discussions about weight training, body weight training, running, hiking, and a bunch of other things that you can apply. Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it, and how to go about that. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Alex Honnold.

Andrew Huberman: Alex Honnold, welcome.

Alex Honnold: Thanks for having me.

Andrew Huberman: I think Free Solo is remarkable for a ton of reasons, but as a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Muller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, "It's wild because you're terrified as an observer the entire time, but you also know that Alex survives from the very beginning." Which is a very unusual-

Alex Honnold: But I think some people don't know that.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, really?

Alex Honnold: Some people watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on, and they spend the whole movie being like, "Oh, my God, what's going to happen?"

Andrew Huberman: Okay, so I just spoiled it.

Alex Honnold: I think-- Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, at this point, I'm like, "Nobody cares. It's old news."

Andrew Huberman: Well, it's a spectacular feat, and we can go into that feat, but I'd actually like to drill in a little bit to just your process in general. I'm sure that's changed over time, and feel free to talk about that. But, you know, I'm very curious about sort of notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, right? And I think Free Solo is also remarkable because you had cameras on you. It was obviously to be recorded, and you knew you had cameras on you.

Andrew Huberman: And yet, I always thought of climbing as kind of a solitary sport, or things that people do in small groups kind of off the grid. Things have changed now with social media, the way everything can be posted very quickly or even run live. But when you think about sort of the work that you're doing in terms of progressing and goals and kind of milestones for yourself, how do you envision that? Is this in like a-- Do you have a diary? Do you have a process where you sit back and you think, you know, "What would be awesome for me to experience?

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Would people like to see it?" What's the sort of balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation for you?

Alex Honnold: So basically, I think climbing is always intrinsically motivated. I mean, I started climbing when I was a child. I've always loved climbing. I love the movement of climbing, I love the feeling of it, I love the whole experience, you know, and just everything about it's great. But then, you know, now as a professional climber, obviously there is that extrinsic motivation as well where you're like, "Oh, this is how I make a living." And so I think with the film "Free Solo," it was a really interesting balance of the two where it's like, this is something that I'd love to do for myself and even if no one else in the world existed, I'd want to do this thing.

Alex Honnold: But then you also know that if the film turns out well, which it did, you know, it's going to be great for your career, it's going to be great for whatever. And so, like, there is that extrinsic motivation as well. And so then you're always trying to parse out, like, which part is which, and, you know, because you don't want to...  particularly with free soloing, you don't want to be too extrinsically motivated because you don't want to get pushed into something that you're not prepared for or that you shouldn't be doing.

Alex Honnold: Of course, you know, even being intrinsically motivated, you can do something you shouldn't. I don't know, I mean, but you're just constantly thinking about those things as a climber.

Andrew Huberman: In order to free solo El Cap, did you memorize sequences or is it more sort of like motifs where you kind of know that you're going to do any number of different things in a given pitch?

Alex Honnold: It depends. So for the hardest parts, I memorized, like for sure, memorized every aspect of it. But that's only the hardest part, so that was maybe like a third of the route. And then for the easiest third, and some of it is actually quite easy. Some of it's like even a non-climber could climb small sections of the wall. Like, there are parts that are quite easy here and there. You know, it's like not the bulk, but so for the easy parts, you just know that you can do it and you don't have to stress it.

Alex Honnold: And then the medium parts, kind of, like, the remaining third of the wall, you sort of remember, kind of like you said, motifs. You might know the hardest part and you just kind of know that it's going to be fine, but you don't have to memorize it per se. But certainly, I knew the route very, very well. You know, you just know all the things that you have to know.

Andrew Huberman: You recognize not just holds, but, like, visceral sensations, like this feels different or-- Because I imagine conditions change, right? I mean, weather conditions, heat on the rock shadows on the rock.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, but not as much as you might think because I was only climbing it in shade. Like, in the springtime, that whole west side of the wall stays in the shade until 11:00 or noonish in the morning. So, you go at 4:00 in the morning and then you have sort of eight hours of solid shade. So normally, the temperature and the conditions feel relatively stable. And you spend the whole season working on it, so you kind of know that tomorrow's going to feel the same as it did today, roughly, you know? And so, it's all within a relatively narrow band.

Alex Honnold: Particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime. In the fall and the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky, so it gets sun much earlier and it actually is way hotter, counterintuitively. It's, like, colder when it's in the shade but then hotter when it's in the sun. And anyways, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously. But when I free soloed El Cap, I was spending three or four months a year in Yosemite every year. You know, a month or two every spring and every autumn. And so you're spending four months a year in a place, you just know how it feels, you know? It's like you're used to getting up that early, you're used to climbing on the wall and you're just kind of like, "Oh, it's going to be another beautiful day on the rock."

Alex Honnold: And actually, the day that I did the free solo of El Cap, it was actually a little more humid and a little warmer than I maybe... than would have been optimal. Like, it's not what I would have chosen. But that's just the way it was that day and I was kind of like, "Well, this is my day," you know? You kind of just have to do the thing. But it'd been, like, overcast that night. And you know when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low? And so I woke up and it was, like, kind of muggy-ish feeling. I was like, "It's not great for being 4:00 in the morning." It feels kind of gross. But I was like, "This is my day," and it was fine.

Andrew Huberman: So you form a relationship with the rock, you kind of like learn to recognize its different states. When you did it and completed it, because I know you set out one day and then you called it off.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, that was in the autumn.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

Alex Honnold: That was the season before.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And, basically the season was ending, like, storms were coming in the next week type deal, and it was like, the season was winding down. It was kind of like, "Well, I should at least take a shot," because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt mostly ready. And it turns out I just wasn't ready-ready, and so I wound up bailing. But that was kind of my end of the season, like, "I think I can squeak this in," knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then, then I'd have to wait six more months. And with the pressure of the film crew and all that stuff, knowing that there are all these people, like, working and waiting for you, you're kind of like, "Well, I ought to at least try to get this done." because like all these people are waiting on me. But as it turns out, I just didn't quite have it yet. And then when I ultimately did do it in the spring, I was much better prepared, felt way better, the whole experience worked out better. So now in retrospect, I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad that it played out that way," because it was better. But at the time it was, you know, I was like, "Oh, God, I failed on this thing. All these people are watching, it's embarrassing." You know, it was all very stressful at the time.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the external pressures have to be, you know pretty mighty especially when they're your friends. I guess one could imagine, like when it's just business, you can just be like, "Well, it's just business." But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: For me, the thing is that if I'm going to go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 4:30 in the morning or 5:00 or something. So that means some of my friends, to get in position at the top of the wall, are getting up at, like, 1:00 in the morning and then hiking to the top of the mountain with a heavy backpack. And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at 1:00 in the morning, like, you better live up to your end of the thing, you know? Like, if you say you're going to do something, you better actually do the thing because your friends... Obviously, no one's complaining. No one is pressuring me, no one's-- But at the same time, you don't want to bail.

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

Alex Honnold: Like, it's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're going to do something and then you just can't do it.

Andrew Huberman: Well, they certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way and-

Alex Honnold: Yeah. And they were all super positive and supportive and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Sure. Well, it certainly worked out. I'm curious, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being a total certainty along that trajectory, when you completed it, were there any phases where you felt you had to improvise against the original plan?

Alex Honnold: You mean on the day of the actual free solo?

Andrew Huberman: On the day of the actual completion of the free solo on El Cap.

Alex Honnold: No, on the day I was 100 percent. Everything was perfect, I knew exactly what to do, it was all amazing. But it took a really long time to get there.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You know, it was like, literally years of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything. But no, on the day, it was perfect.

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Andrew Huberman: When you climb, I'm curious where your mental horizon is. I can make up a story as a non-climber that your mental horizon is always on just the next maneuver, just getting further up or further over. Sometimes, of course, you have to go down and up. But that your sort of time-bending and your space-bending is very, very close.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But do you ever go into states where you're sort of in automaticity? I mean, we hear about flow, right? But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to being hyper-strategic about what's happening in the next five seconds, 10 seconds?

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Well, I think the aspiration is to be in that, you know, flow state, whatever you want to call it. But, actually, I think even in the film, there's some quotes from me saying autopilot and things. Like, you know, I'm aspiring to be on autopilot.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: So, I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about it. And that's, for me at least, why it required so much practice, was to be able to just do something almost by rote, through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced without having to think about it. Because I think once you start thinking about it too much, you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just, like, get too... get caught up in your own mind. And I don't know. I mean, the aspiration was just to do the thing.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Like, no thinking about it, no hesitation, you know, no emotional affect around it, to just do it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big? In other words, are you feeling your way through it, as well as using vision? I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I've actually never been asked something quite like that. And in some ways, I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is maybe the whole thing. I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something, where you are just flowing over stone. I mean, obviously, you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds, and you're sort of placing your feet correctly that way. But really, you're just doing sequences. You're just flowing. Like, your body is moving.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I mean, I think when you climb well, and particularly when you've rehearsed something and you know the climb really well, it feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns, where it's just, like, your body doing what it's meant to do, and it feels great, you know? It's like, it's really nice.

Andrew Huberman: Do you ever surprise yourself still, like, that in training things, you know, "I'm surprised that worked out," and then stick with that kinesthetic sense? I've been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp. She's a choreographer. She was a ballerina. She's a choreographer, and she said that what distinguishes, you know, sort of virtuosity from mastery is that when you start to surprise yourself.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And I think you're certainly in that category of virtuoso. How often does surprise come about?

Alex Honnold: For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing, is when you surprise yourself. And this isn't so much with free soloing, because with free soloing, you don't want to be surprised. But with a rope on, you know, you have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're up against your physical limits or whatever, and then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And, you know, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, "Oh, I exceeded my own expectations." It's like the best feeling, you know? It happens from time to time.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: In some ways, actually, I was telling one of my friends, I think that that might be one of the ways in which I see aging. You know, like, as I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often. I think, as, like, a 24-year-old, you just don't know your own limitations that much, and you frequently surprise yourself, where I'm like, "Wow, I really outdid myself. I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do, but I managed to do it." And now, as a recent 40-year-old, you know, like, that happens from time to time, for sure, but not all the time, you know? It's like...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And now occasionally, I have things where I was like, "Oh, I was sure I could do that," and then I failed, you know? And you're kind of like, oh, you can blame conditions, you can blame whatever, but you're kind of like, "Oh, I really thought I would do that, and I fell off anyway," and you're like, "Damn it."

Andrew Huberman: What is the role of aging in climbing, traditionally and how you're experiencing it? There are fields of science, like mathematics, where the stereotype is, you know, it's a young person's game, and then there are fields like biology, which is a bit more incremental, and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers. Those are academic cerebral endeavors. But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport. For climbing, what's the lure for climbing and for free soloers in particular? That it's an old man's game, it's a young man's game? Woman's game, excuse me.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game. But, no it could be. But no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports, just because it's relatively low-impact on your body. It's very technique and, like, movement focused, and so it's not just pure physical strength. That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now, and the people winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23-ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: So I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics probably. But then to do interesting, new things on real rock outdoors, I think there's a much wider latitude.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You know, it's like-- And then even into your 50s and 60s, there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, you know, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting edge physically.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: So, I think there's a lot of opportunity for climbing, more than most sports. And I think actually, and the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, like, think ball sports, you know, NBA, NFL, baseball, whatever, it's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done playing forever. Like, you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player. Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs. You can still do things that matter. You can help teach. You can do whatever. And so you can kind of, like, stay in the game much, much longer.

Andrew Huberman: You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now. We see a lot of sports like skateboarding and climbing now in the Olympics, and these were sports that traditionally were done... you know, people just go to where these things were done and it wasn't always recorded because there wasn't social media back then.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: More that there weren't smartphones, there weren't cameras. It's like, it's not even about the social, it's about whether or not you can record it easily.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But-

Andrew Huberman: So, I'm guessing there's a big influx of young kids getting into this now. Do you see the sport progressing faster? And I'm also curious about the culture, whether or not... You know, any time a sport is in the Olympics, the thing is like, oh, it's kind of quote unquote "sold out now." It's going to change, it's going to become more commercial. So, what's the culture within climbing about this big expansion? What are your thoughts?

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: I mean, personally, I'm way into it. I mean, I was a kid that got into climbing in the climbing gym, and, and it's changed my life for the better, you know. Like, I love climbing, I think it's great. You know, I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics are sort of like more mainstream adoption of climbing. But that's kind of great, because I mean, most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways. You know, like, they make... They're like coaches or dieticians or setters. Like, they make the climbs that people climb on.

Alex Honnold: And so basically, the bigger the industry gets, the more people like that can make a living doing the thing that they love to do, even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level. So, I'm kind of like, you know, a broadening industry is kind of good for everybody. And mostly, I mean, climbing's awesome. Like, if people enjoy-- You know, it's like, why not get into climbing? It's like certainly... I mean, I think it's better than most other fitness modalities, you know. It's like, oh, why do CrossFit when you can go rock climbing? It's way cooler.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, it certainly seems-

Alex Honnold: It's way more fun. That's for sure.

Andrew Huberman: And you can do it indoors or outdoors.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: There are probably certain aspects you wouldn't want to do alone for safety reasons, but-

Alex Honnold: I think when people ask, like, what do you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff, like with the Olympics and the mainstream appeal, I'm kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a major city for their entire life, like, that's great. If they just want to climb plastic the rest of their life, that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else. I'm like, "That's cool." Like, you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber. I'm kind of like, people can do whatever they want, and I think that's great for the sport.

Alex Honnold: And you are seeing standards rise very quickly right now sort of as a result. Just, like, better access to gyms, more kids getting into it. You just see talent rise faster.

Andrew Huberman: I come across social media accounts of parkour kids every once in a while doing absolutely insane stuff in urban terrains usually.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: What's the crossover, if any, between parkour and climbing of the sort that you do?

Alex Honnold: There's a little bit. Not that much, but climbers often... Competition climbing, like bouldering, which is in the Olympics, has definitely taken a slight turn towards parkour-ish sorts of moves, like big run and jumps and, crazy swings and things like that. And so some old school climbers complain that it's, like, gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering. But I'm kind of into it. I mean, I don't know. This is all very, like, inside baseball. Like, how do you separate... Like, basically at the highest level, competitors are all very, very strong, so then how do you separate these different competitors who are all climbing at an elite level? And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like run and jumps and coordination and things like that. So, I don't know. I mean, I think it's cool. I've actually met like a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb. And they are really good at very particular sorts of things, where you're like... I mean, it's amazing to see.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, I find a lot of what they do terrifying, but also awesome. I can't help myself but watch. And, just the motivation to work it out too, like you know, because some of these are truly make or break or make or die, at least in the form they put to social media. So, I'm always curious, like, what goes into that.

Andrew Huberman: And, you know, having grown up skateboarding, I mean, you go around a city and you see stuff, and you're like, "Oh, that would be awesome." And so, I mean, just looking at a landscape, natural or urban landscape in a completely different way, I see a lot of parallels with climbing and parkour.

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Andrew Huberman: And also, you know, I think of you at certainly at the level and kind of parallel with a guy like Tony Hawk, who's been in the sport of skateboarding for a very long time. He's an amazing ambassador for the sport as it's gone through its various, like, you know, peaks and valleys, now in the Olympics. So, I think climbing and sports like skateboarding and surfing have a lot in common in this way. Subculture, but then also gets popular.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, where they're kind of niche and then they become kind of mainstream.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But then even once they're mainstream, they're still kind of cool, you know. Like skateboarding. It's definitely not, like, full punk rock anymore, but you're like, "It's pretty cool, you know, like, skateboarding still." And it's not that common still, you know. And that's the thing with climbing is I'm kind of like, yeah, climbing's growing, it's becoming more mainstream. It's just never going to be, you know, soccer or something. You know what I mean? It's always going to be slightly niche, slightly counter-cultural because it's just, you know, it's just a smaller thing. It's just not playing basketball or something.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'm intrigued by the training aspects and some of the fitness aspects. I agree that it-- Having only done it a little bit. I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I was going to ask. So, you've gone to the gym and stuff.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've gone up and down the wall a few times.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, cool.

Andrew Huberman: I've belayed for people a few times. But I am by no means skilled at it. It'd be fun to get into because I-- Happy birthday, by the way.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Oh, thanks, man.

Andrew Huberman: I just turned 40. I'm turning 50 soon, and I think more about... I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I think more about mobility now.

Alex Honnold: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: And also-

Alex Honnold: Climbing is great for that.

Andrew Huberman: Climbing's great for that. And there's a lot of interesting literature on brain longevity and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of your distal body. So, toes and fingers, believe it or not. It's a correlate. Like the toe strength-

Alex Honnold: Yeah, isn't that... I've always thought that's just a correlation thing. But that's not... Yeah, like, because grip strength is just a proxy for all... It means that you use your body a lot, and so therefore you're probably...

Andrew Huberman: It's just a correlation.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You know, when I read those things about, like, if you have strong grip it means this and this and this. I'm like, "No, if you have a strong grip, it means that you do stuff all the time."

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And so, as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time.

Andrew Huberman: That's right. So, it's a correlate. At the same time, the motor neurons that control trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like, as you go out from the midline, they're in layers in the spinal cord, so they literally, like, the motor neurons that control, like, the core sit closer to the... Sit closer in the spinal cord to the midline. And then, you know, across evolution, we evolved from animals with fins and wings, and some of the same genes are used. And eventually, you get motor neurons that control, like, fine motor movements like this.

Alex Honnold: Right?

Alex Honnold: I'm, like, sitting up straighter. I'm like, "Which ones?"

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And it is true that for some reason, the motor neurons that control the distal body, so toes and fingers, calves and forearms, are more vulnerable to age-related degeneration than the ones for the core.

Alex Honnold: Interesting.

Andrew Huberman: So, it is possible, we don't know yet, that by maintaining strength of the distal body that you can actually preserve motor neuron and cognitive function, right? It's more of a-

Alex Honnold: Then I fricking, I'm psyched.

Andrew Huberman: Then you're set, right?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, I'm doing it.

Andrew Huberman: And that's why I was curious how climbers, provided they don't fall and kill themselves, how they age. And there's other things here too, because in some sports, like football and rugby, people are getting their head hit a lot, so they don't tend to age well. But I always thought of climbers, you know, in my time up in Yosemite, I'd see young guys like you, and then I'd see these old climbers and I was like, "Man, these guys are in incredible shape."

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, that doesn't help.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: They're lean, they're lithe, they seem cognitively fresh. So it seems like it's a sport where people hold onto their faculties pretty well.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I think so.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I mean, I think, you know, it's hard to say because there just aren't that many super old climbers, and then a lot of the ones that come to mind, like sort of famous old climbers, I mean, they die the same ways that everybody dies, you know, like cancer or heart disease or whatever, but in their late 80s or whatever.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: No, I think climbing is a great way to age. I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are sort of 50s and 60s who are very fit. Actually, I mean, it comes to mind, there's this friend of mine who's a philosophy professor at UNLV, at the university, but he's incredibly jacked and I think he's 64 now. I think he just became the oldest person to climb a certain grade, like 5.14, which is like kind of an elite rock climbing grade. But I think he's maybe the oldest person to have done that now.

Alex Honnold: But, he once told me this anecdote that he was at some hotel pool, like, in middle America at some conference or something, and some kid asked if he could touch his abs because he'd never seen... He was like, "Are they real?" You know, like real, because he's like-

Andrew Huberman: Because he's only seen action figures.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Well, yeah, he's like a 48-year-old professor who's, like, shredded and some kid in the pool is like, "Can I touch those? Is that real?" You know, like I've never seen a thing like that. And so-

Andrew Huberman: It says a lot about him and about the state of our country right now.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, exactly, middle America.

Andrew Huberman: We are in this crisis of obesity, that's very serious. It goes beyond aesthetics. Yeah, I've thought about getting into climbing. The problem I had is I tried to just raw strength it. I just tried to pull up my way.

Alex Honnold: A lot of people do that.

Andrew Huberman: And obviously that's foolish. And you gas out really fast.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, that's a very common thing for adults. I mean, especially men, especially somebody like you who's already fit, and so you try to bring the tool you already have to it, and you're like, "No, you've got to drive with your legs, you can go technique, mobility." I like to say that anybody that tries climbing should think of it as climbing a really, really steep staircase, where it's like you're still walking up the stairs and you're using the handrail for balance but you're not pulling yourself up the handrail.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And most of climbing is basically a steep staircase, you know? I mean, especially outdoors. In climbing gyms, it's a little bit different, because the wall's actually vertical. But outdoors, the wall is almost always a little bit less than vertical. So it's like basically you're on a very, very steep and technical staircase, and then you're using the handrail, like the handholds to keep you balanced on the wall. But your legs should always be driving you.

Andrew Huberman: Got it.

Andrew Huberman: I still haven't done Half Dome and-

Alex Honnold: Never? You've done Clouds Rest a bunch and not Half Dome?

Andrew Huberman: No.

Andrew Huberman: Done Clouds Rest a bunch of times, run Clouds Rest, rucked Clouds Rest, but Half Dome has those cables. Yeah, yeah, I never was organized enough to do the sign up early enough in the season.

Alex Honnold: That's weird.

Alex Honnold: No, but just do it after the permits.

Andrew Huberman: Oh-

Alex Honnold: You know the cables stay up all year. So when it's out of season, they take the uprights down, but the cables just sit there and you can do it any time. It's actually way better to do it post, like after the season, because there's no permitting, there are no people, and it's, like, super chill.

Andrew Huberman: Okay, I definitely want to do it.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, just do it, do it off season.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, because my biggest concern is not that I'm going to fall, it's that someone above me is going to fall. I mean, there are a lot of-

Alex Honnold: Way better.

Alex Honnold: Well, you're strong enough to just glance them off, you know? Just, like, shrug them aside.

Andrew Huberman: Possibly. I did hear about it-

Alex Honnold: Or ideally, stop them. Right? You know?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, ideally stop them, but, yeah, I'd love to do it. I've been going to Yosemite since I was in my teens. I love it up there. I wouldn't say it's my second home, but it's heaven. I mean, as you know, and actually one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you among others is that I would like more people to get into the national parks, and really enjoy them, because they're... We have so many gems in Yosemite, the High Country and Tuolumne Meadows to me is like, is heaven on earth. The-

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Oh, Yosemite, I mean, is a crown jewel. I think it's the best national park in the country.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, people forget it's only about a four-hour drive from the Bay Area or from Los Angeles. It's pretty quick. You go through a bunch of different landscapes and then boom, suddenly you're there.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, and it's like paradise. It's incredible.

Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about things in free soloing that, as a uninformed spectator, we think, oh, you know, that's the hardest part, that's the most difficult thing. But I imagine, inside of the sport, like that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of, like what's some of the non-obvious aspects of free soloing, if they exist? Because I always think, okay, you know, if... I can imagine, oh, that's super tough, but that might be the easier or less tough. Usually there are these kind of hidden, I don't want to call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers in a sport. What are some things that the observer wouldn't be aware of?

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are. I would say, though, that the obvious visual dangers, like, for a non-climber just watching free soloing, I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved. You know, they just see it and they're like, "That's crazy. That's what I..." You know, and whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case. Just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing, you know? You're like, "That's a vertical wall!" But if it's, like, a nice crack going over a vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing. But then some of the other stuff, you know, if there are really small holds, you're trusting your feet, I don't know, I mean, it's just really hard to judge that stuff visually. Like, you have to do it to experience it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But I think that honestly the whole perception of risk around free soloing is maybe slightly misperceived by people. So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, like if you're traditional climbing, like if you're climbing with a rope and gear and you're going to climb Half Dome, let's say. When you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you put your first piece of gear in, because that's just kind of the nature of climbing, you go for a ways and then you put in some gear, you clip your rope into it, and then you're protected. And then for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point. You know, like, there's always risk involved in climbing, because even if you have a rope on, depending how far you're going above your last piece of gear and, you know, what the terrain is like and whether or not the rock is good and all these other factors, you're more or less safe. And so I think people look at free soloing as this binary, like if you don't have a rope, that's dangerous. And you're kind of like, "Well, any time you're climbing there are dangers, or there could be." And you're constantly evaluating those and trying to mitigate them. And so I think that's the big misperception.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Because easy free soloing is probably-- If I'm somebody, you know, who's like an expert rock climber or whatever, I've been climbing 30 years, if I'm on an easy free solo, that's almost certainly safer than a very hard, certain types of hard climbing with a rope on. You know, and most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on.

Alex Honnold: Because with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain, because you're kind of like, "Surely there'll be something good just around the corner." And so you keep going around the corner and you keep not getting into good gear, and you're like, "Holy shit, it's getting scarier and scarier" Are we allowed to curse?

Andrew Huberman: Sure, yeah, yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah. So you know, like-

Andrew Huberman: Even at each other, if you want to curse at me. Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, perfect. But so a lot of my scariest experiences have been with a rope on, because you're kind of like, "I'm sure it'll get better. I'm sure it'll get better," and it keeps getting worse and worse. And then pretty soon, you're in some position where you're definitely going to die if you fall. But you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on, because you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless. And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like if something seems wrong, you just go down. You know, because you're just not going to push that far.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I saw the movie "Meru."

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: That was pretty intense.

Alex Honnold: I mean, that's an example of pushing really fricking far with a rope on. You know, it's like because you have a rope, you're willing to just keep pushing into the unknown. But then you wind up in a position where you're like, "This is pretty fricking extreme." You know, it's like... I mean, you saw the film. It's all totally insane.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it is insane. And I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think that in your sport, in free soloing, like the idea from the spectator side is, you know, like, "These guys, like one fall and they're dead," right?

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I've heard you say before that's actually not true.

Alex Honnold: I mean, yeah, it's kind of true in that-

Andrew Huberman: I mean, you don't want to fall, but-

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Like yeah, it's true that at most places, if you fall off, you're going to die. But like, when I started free soloing as a kid, not that I like started and then only did that, but on my first free solos when I was young, in the back of my mind, it would always be like, "If you slip, you'll die." You know, and the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip and nothing else moves. You know, like your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight, and your foot slipped, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, my foot slipped," and then you keep climbing, and it's no big deal. I mean, there are also some places where if your foot slips, you're going to die for sure.

Alex Honnold: And the key is differentiating between those. But I think when I started, you know, it was like, "If anything happens, you'll die." And as you do it more, you're actually like, "No, I mean, a lot of things can happen and it'll be fine. You just have to make sure that the wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time."

Andrew Huberman: I was surprised to hear you say that, yes, free soloists die, but oftentimes they die not free soloing. They die doing other things. I'm fascinated by this, not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons. So, maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, there's a quote in the film "Free Solo," where a friend of mine, Tommy Caldwell, who's a very well-known climber, says something like, "All the people who were big free soloists are dead now." And it kind of implies like, you know, free soloing is dangerous and they all died soloing. But the reality is that basically none of them died soloing. Like, one or two soloists have died soloing. Though my preferred statistic is that no one has ever died doing something cutting edge. So no one has ever died pushing the envelope, like doing something extreme.

Alex Honnold: There have been a couple free soloists who have died free soloing easy terrain, like just out doing something casual, and maybe a hold breaks or maybe something happens. Like, it's impossible to know what because they die. But then the bulk of other people who are sort of known for free soloing have died either in parachuting accidents, like wingsuiting or BASE jumping, or one got swept out to sea by a rogue wave. That's kind of a freak thing. One died in a car accident. You know, just like things like, you know, it's basically just ways that people die.

Alex Honnold: So all that to say, it's not clear that free soloing is the most dangerous.

Andrew Huberman: We have a friend who unfortunately is dead now, Ken Block, who was a famous rally car driver and with our photographer here at the podcast, Mike Blabac, and film crews with DC, he developed... he was one of the founders of DC, like DC Shoes, DC Skateboarding, et cetera. Rally car. Unfortunately died in a snowmobiling accident. So something very like kind of conventional for his daily life. He lived out in Utah, and you know, obviously a huge tragedy. And then you go look at kind of people who do, quote unquote "extreme sports," for lack of a better term.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And you find that it's fairly common for people who are at the peak of a field, of a sport, to die doing something else that they really enjoy. And you kind of wonder like, are they pushing themselves or is it that they're just a little too relaxed? Because as you said, rarely do free soloists die like in the most difficult aspects of the climb. So maybe it's that letting go of the mental engagement. Like, there's a change in the threshold of what they consider dangerous. So unless they need to be locked in, there's just some lack of attention to detail. This is my way of trying to save your life, basically, saying anything you're doing besides free soloing, be very, very careful, please.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

Alex Honnold: Rein it in.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, we need you.

Alex Honnold: No, I mean, I also would suspect that all of the people that we're talking about are all just a little... they're just bigger risk-takers in general. They're just more willing to do things like drive quickly and, you know, do whatever. Just more willing to take risk in their life, and I suppose sooner or later those things catch up with you, or they can.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Though that said, with free soloing, two of the world's best free soloists from the previous generations are still alive. You know, older men just living their best lives, doing their thing.

Andrew Huberman: Still free soloing?

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Maybe not a super high level, maybe not pushing themselves hard, but yeah, certainly could. So, a man named Peter Croft, he's a Canadian but has lived in the US forever. He was like my childhood hero growing up, and he's an incredible solo...\'a0

Alex Honnold: Actually, there's a film with him, or a scene with him in the film, "Free Solo." He's kind of like a... They kind of frame him as a mentor figure, though honestly, he wasn't a mentor, because I was too afraid to ever even talk to him, because he was such a personal hero. But I mean, he's incredible. But he's a super nice guy.\'a0

Alex Honnold: And so, we're both sponsored by The North Face now, so we're friends. We're on the same team, and so I've hung out with him at events and things. And I was having dinner with him once, and I was kind of like, "Oh, at what point did you, kind of, end the cutting-edge free soloing?" And he was like, "Oh, actually, I did a couple of my hardest solos, in terms of grades, not necessarily the most cutting-edge, but kind of the hardest grades, within the last several years." And I was like, "Really?" And he's still just kind of doing stuff and fit, and he's psyched. And he's got to be... I don't know, I don't want to offend him, but he's got to be like mid-50s or maybe 60.

Andrew Huberman: It's awesome.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, and he's just still incredible. He's still climbing all the time. And even on his rest days, he goes down into the same climbing areas to hang out with his friends and chit-chat and like, take his dog to the cliff and stuff. So, I look at somebody like him, who's basically made an entire life of free soloing. I'm kind of like, if you do it carefully, you make good decisions, I don't think it has to be sketchy.

Andrew Huberman: How awesome is it that you're friends and coworkers with one of your childhood heroes?

Alex Honnold: Oh, it's the best. That was actually, I think, one of the best things about being a professional climber, is so many of the people that I looked up to as a kid now are friends and peers and things, and you're like, "Oh, it's so great."

Andrew Huberman: It's wild, right?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah. You get to hang out with your heroes, and you're like, "Not sure I would have..."

Andrew Huberman: You never would have imagined.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. No, it's amazing.

Andrew Huberman: There's some young kid out there now, thinking the same. He's like, "I'm too afraid to go up to Alex and say hello."\'a0

Alex Honnold: They should just say hello.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. And some day you may be working together. Right?

Alex Honnold: I don't [unintelligible] I mean, in the same way that I... Yeah, totally. I mean, in the same way that I was so afraid to ever talk to Peter when I was young, and then ultimately, now he's just another nice guy, and we're friends. We climb together. It's great.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Sort of like, yeah, anybody should just say "Hi." You know, it's like if we're at the cliff, come chat. You know, it's like we're all doing the same thing.

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Andrew Huberman: Do most climbers, as they're coming up, if they have aspirations to be great free soloists or other types of climbers, do they tend to work and do other things? Or is this like a, you're all in, it's a lifestyle, you live in a van? I mean, you can also do that after achieving some degree of financial success. We know you've done that. We can talk about that. But is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in order to get really good at it?

Alex Honnold: That's an interesting question. I'm not totally sure, because in some ways, it depends on what you mean by achieving success as a climber. Because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that, in some ways, you're almost better off being a university student or something, like having a structured schedule, that in some ways limits the amount that you can climb, because... I don't know enough about other sports, but I suspect this is akin to powerlifting or something, where it's like if you're trying to be really, really strong, you only need to do a little bit every couple of days, and then recover.\'a0

Alex Honnold: And so, for sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, say, three or four hour sessions, four or five days a week. And then it's like, what do you do with the rest of your time? And so, you might as well have a job or... And so, a lot of my friends who write code for a living or do things like that are very, very strong climbers because of the schedule that it allows, the structure.\'a0

Alex Honnold: That said, I think if you want to be a great free soloist or a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing nonstop, because for that, you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance. You're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time. And so then, hours of practice, I think, matter more in a way.

Andrew Huberman: Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery, as long as we're talking about the number of hours that one puts in. I'm sure your recovery looks different than it used to. But what do you do to recover between sessions? Are you a big believer in sauna, cold? Or is it just basically sleep?

Alex Honnold: No, I just...

Alex Honnold: No, I push my three-year-old on the swings, you know? That's how I recover, is like I play with the kids on the swings. I mean, I try to eat relatively well. I try to sleep enough. I do all the basics for recovery. But no, I mean, I basically just survive in between.

Alex Honnold: I was actually just joking with somebody that I think, as a 24-year-old living by myself in a van, I would have crazy days of climbing, and then on a rest day, I would like binge-watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat of Oreos, and just never even leave the bed of my van, and then the next day go out and do a speed record on something or just be like, "Ah, I'm so psyched."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And now, I'm definitely not doing that now, or at least... No, I haven't done that in forever, because I just don't have the time and don't have... Yeah, so I think now it takes a little more effort to recover, and it's just a little slower, probably.

Andrew Huberman: So, all this...

Alex Honnold: But it's hard to say, though, because a lot of that is just having kids and just having different demands of time and life.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But it sounds like climbers are pretty grassroots in their training and techniques. Like, in a lot of other areas...

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I mean, I was living in a van. I was basically super low overhead, no team, no support. I'm just living in a car doing the thing nonstop for a decade. And so, that's a pretty scrappy approach. And I think that in the years since then, climbing has professionalized a little bit. And there's a little more money. There's a little more support. And there's just a higher level of competition. I think it'd be harder to achieve things doing just that now. I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are going to be making their way into the climbing culture.

Alex Honnold: Well, massage guns for sure are there.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Yeah, massage guns are there.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Yep.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Yep.

Alex Honnold: I try to roll out every once in a while.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Even when I was living in my van, I would stretch and roll out and do those types of things because you just kind of have to stay supple.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, how do you feel? How's your body feel?

Alex Honnold: Well, I mean, right now, I think pretty good.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I don't know. Yeah, I live in Las Vegas. When I'm at home, I try to see this body worker in town once a week, Pat. Sweet Pat. He's the man. And so, I think of that as kind of a basic, just taking care of... It's like an oil change.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: It's like making sure the engine runs smoothly.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And I think as a result of body work like that, I haven't had any major overuse injuries in years. And so, that's pretty good for me.

Andrew Huberman: Awesome. Yeah, maybe it's just because historically it was what I knew, but I'm seeing so many parallels with skateboarding, where there was this time when no skateboarders lifted weights or did any kind of fitness.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, totally.

Andrew Huberman: Then that started to happen. Actually, Danny Way, who jumped the Great Wall of China, he was kind of the first person in skateboarding to like... He would do neck training because he had broken his neck surfing in Newport.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And he was doing these, like where you swing the ball above your head. He was doing core work. And I remember back then thinking I'd sort of left skateboarding at that point.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it was on the fringe. Mm-hmm. You're like, "That's weird."

Andrew Huberman: And I was thinking, skateboarders are going to really have a problem with this, because it wasn't consistent with the culture. Now, there are a lot of guys who work out and are taking care of their bodies.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Andrew Huberman: But there are still a lot of guys who absolutely kill it. They're incredible, and their energy drink is a beer. And their quote, unquote, "nootropic" is cigarettes, and they murder it. They're super good. And so, I like these sports where it's like, you can't get around just investing a massive number of hours doing it, and then you can either take the kind of rock and roll track into it, or you can take the kind of self-care track. And sometimes people cross over, but you know, it works either way.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It really does.

Alex Honnold: Climbing still has that exact same thing going on, where you can kind of go either way. I do think, though, that the self-care track will obviously win out long term. I mean, that's the thing with climbing being in the Olympics and just the professionalism, all that. I mean, obviously, self-care is better for you long term.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Because, like, everybody knows that. That said, you still see a lot of very proficient climbers who, yeah, exactly, just kind of party, go hard. I mean, because so much of climbing just comes down to effort when you're doing the thing. Like, if you go climbing several days a week, and you try your absolute hardest every time you're climbing, you're going to get pretty freaking good, you know, whether you do red light therapy or any of the weird other stuff or not.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: \'a0Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: So, it's like, I mean, it really just comes down to your effort doing the thing.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And so, yeah, I mean, you could live... And I mean, a lot of climbers, especially in the past, lived on a diet of cigarettes and coffee and fricking beer. And you can get by that way.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the 1970s-'80s approach.

Alex Honnold: It's not ideal.

Andrew Huberman: It's not ideal. A friend of mine, Tom Bilyeu, he is very successful in business. He also has a podcast, and he was saying to me the other day, he goes... Yeah, basically, when young people ask him how to get good at whatever, business or anything, he just tells them, "Work as if smartphones didn't exist." Meaning, when you're bored, go work on the thing. When you don't have anything...\'a0

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Andrew Huberman: Like, if you get rid... I'm not encouraging people get rid of their smartphone, but I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think nowadays, even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot, it is very hard to disengage from pressures of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications, right?

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Alex Honnold: Mm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And if you're coming up, this idea that you always have to be in contact with people, it limits the total number of reps that you get physically, but also mentally.

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Andrew Huberman: Because I imagine there was a lot of time sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments when I was in graduate school.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Now I'd probably... If that... If phones didn't exist... I'd probably be on my phone.

Alex Honnold: Now that time would be full of something.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I used to think about experiments and figures and what would this work, and that work. So, what are your thoughts on kind of a mental engagement separate from climbing?

Alex Honnold: No, I think that's definitely a big thing. I mean, I think... I've thought in the past that, in some ways, I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing, where it's like sort of pre-smartphone, pre-social. You know, you just live in your car, and you do the thing, and that's it, and that's your whole lifestyle. I mean, currently, I have all the social media accounts and things, but I don't have any of the apps on my phone. I have a friend that manages it for me. I send all the content to her, but she'd post stuff. And so, it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from scrolling aimlessly. I don't really have the time anymore anyway. You know, it's like I'd rather play with my kids than scroll.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

Alex Honnold: But no, I mean, that's tough. I mean, I think it'd be hard to be a kid now growing up, like thinking that that's the norm, that you have to be connected, that you have to be capturing everything, documenting it, and then sharing it and posting it, and just all the stuff. I've always felt like the thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber. Like, first and foremost, the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well. And the most important thing is doing the thing. And I just think when you get caught up in all the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing, you know? But it's easy to conflate them, and it's... I don't know. Yeah. No, I think it'd be really hard.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree completely. And the hidden secret is that if you want something interesting to show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so you have something to bring to it.

Alex Honnold: Totally.\'a0

Alex Honnold: It's just so hard to actually be good at something, and it's...\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And this goes back to what we were just talking about with free soloing and perceived risk and all that kind of stuff, is, it is really easy to make something look rad, soloing-wise.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Like, I could climb the outside of this building, and it would look insane. It would get tons of likes. People would think it's cool. But it's not cutting edge. It's not cool. It's not even hard. Like, it's not... It's whatever. But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in climbing is pretty freaking hard.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You know? And the challenge with social and with public, all that kind of stuff, is that it's just so easy to... I don't want to say to fake it, because it's not like people are out there trying to be duplicitous or to trick you. But it's just you can get the same splash with none of the effort through social stuff, I think. You're like, "Oh, I just did something easy, and people thought it was amazing. Let's call that good." And you're like, "Well, that's just not good because it's easy." It's freaking... You know, it's not cutting edge. It's not rad.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, you clearly go after big, big goals. I mean, it's a giant goal. I think it really stands... And I know you've been told this many times before, so, if it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great. I mean, it stands as perhaps at least one of the most impressive physical feats in history, because the risk consequence scenario there was, you fall, you can potentially die. There may have been moments along the climb where...

Alex Honnold: Few brief moments, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, brief moments.

Alex Honnold: Where you're right above a ledge. You're like, "Oh, wow."

Andrew Huberman: Right. Yeah. So, okay, and it's so like you to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments. It really speaks to your mindset. But I think that going after big things, I mean, building rockets to go to the moon. I remember when I was a kid, Danny Way decided to jump the Great Wall of China, to do it live. Someone had died trying it on a mountain bike. I remember thinking... I watched it on a little screen this big, and it was like I've known that guy since... We're out of touch now, for the most part, but since I was 13, and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, jumping the Great Wall of China, you know.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: And then there are people who just push themselves. And so, what I wonder is, on a daily basis, when you climb, do you ever just climb for fun? When you climb, are you always working on something? And there's this famous scene in "Free Solo," more or less immediately after you got down from the climb, you're fingerboarding again, and you're training, and you're enjoying your routine, which, by the way, is consistent with keeping the dopamine flowing for process as opposed to the postpartum depression that many people experience after a big feat is completed. Selling a big company, et cetera.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing. But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, "Okay, what's next?" In the domain of climbing, because I realize you've had two children.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You've got other aspects of your life. But where's your mind in terms of where you want to take your life and your climbing?

Alex Honnold: Yeah. On the one hand, I set big goals, I guess, something like El Cap. But the thing is, I would actually say that's more the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals like all the time. I basically always have a running to-do list of, "What am I doing tomorrow? What am I doing today? What am I trying to do this week?" And that extends to climbing as well, with what are all the little things I can be doing? What are the little things I can tick this week?\'a0

Alex Honnold: You know, I have my climbing journal that goes back to 2005 or 2006 or something. So, basically, everything I've ever climbed is logged with difficulty and times and whatever. And so, I'm constantly trying to tick things as a climber, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before. And so, I mean, I think actually, my day of climbing yesterday could be a good example of this. So, yesterday, my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, did a day of sport climbing, and then picked up our daughter on the way home. It's like a perfect day like that, where you can kind of make it all work.\'a0

Alex Honnold: And I'm not going to be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work, and life, basically. So, I don't want to have any big project there, because I just won't have time to do it. You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately, where I'm like, "Oh, there's no point in trying to do something that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have three days."\'a0

Alex Honnold: And so, I had a goal for that day of trying to do this very particular little combination of routes that I hadn't done before. It's just something new, something interesting. It's not that hard. But then we got there, and it was like the worst condition. It was like 86 degrees when we parked the car. And so, it's like you're trying to work out in horrendously hot.

Alex Honnold: And it was also that kind of monsoony, so it was very humid. So, we got to the wall, and it's disgusting. And I was kind of like, "Well, you know, it's a training day." Like, whatever. And so, I tried to do this new combination of routes. Ultimately I failed on it. I fell at the very freaking top of the wall. I was so maxxed and didn't do it. I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and I'll for sure do it then.\'a0

Alex Honnold: But you know, it's like a very small goal. Like, this isn't cutting edge, like big. This isn't even cool at all. Like, my friends won't even care. Like, they'll think it's stupid. But it's nice for me to have a reason to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing. And I think that the big goals come as a result of all those little things. Like, if day-by-day, you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit harder, you know, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day, I think that looking back at 20 years of climbing outside non-stop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all those little things. You do enough little things all the time, and then every once in a while, something big happens.

Alex Honnold: And so, I don't know. You know, but I have to-do lists going back years of like goals and all these aspirations. And some years, I only do half of them. Some years, I do a third of them. And then, something like free soloing El Cap sat on a list like that literally for years, and it kept floating to the next year, to the next year. Because you get into Yosemite, and you look at the wall, and you're like, "No, that's not..." You're like, "It's totally out of the question." And so, you just punt to the next year. And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes the goals don't happen, sometimes they do. But you kind of just have to let it play out. It's more like the day-to-day little challenges.

Andrew Huberman: I love how matter-of-fact you are about it. You are wired different.

Alex Honnold: You think? I mean...

Andrew Huberman: Well, maybe not. I mean, because... And this is a vastly less high-risk, high-consequence endeavor, but public speaking doesn't make me... It doesn't raise my level of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all, because I've done so much of it, right?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, because you're super well-practiced, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, just... Yeah. So, sometimes I'll think like, "Oh, I'm a little more keyed up than I want to be," and I know how to calm myself down.

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Alex Honnold: Well, I'm actually...\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Yeah?

Alex Honnold: I feel the same way with public speaking now, but that's after years of practice because it used to be so stressful for me.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah?

Alex Honnold: Like, so... Yeah. No, I was so shy.

Andrew Huberman: Proof that your amygdala does work like everybody else's. Yeah.

Alex Honnold: But totally.

Alex Honnold: No, I mean, exactly. That's why I hate all this stuff. It's like, "Oh, you're just wired differently." Because I'm like, no. I know that, you know, yeah, public... Like, speaking in front of a class in school was mortifying. But now, after years of doing keynote speeches to giant groups, I'm sort of like, no, now it's super chill.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But you know, that's all learned.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Forgive me for saying you're wired different. I think that when you did "Free Solo," there were a number of news programs that took advantage of the fact that they put you in a brain scanner, you know, this is my field, the neuroscience, you know, his amygdala might not be activated the same way as other people's.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But I would have thought, and I think it's the case now you confirmed, that it's really domain-specific. Like, you've done so much climbing, you have so many reps there, that you're familiar with the contingencies. And so, it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances, climbing. But the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine.

Alex Honnold: With that particular scanning in the fMRI, they show you a bunch of black-and-white pictures, and it's like, whether or not that triggers the fear response. And I was like, "Well, obviously, looking at pictures isn't going to trigger my fear response." But I'm like, "Had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me, that would have triggered my fear response."\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You know, if there were, like, giant spiders, crawling over me, that probably would too. And so, I was like, "No, obviously, I feel fear. I'm just not afraid of black-and-white photos, you know?"

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Alex Honnold: I was like...

Andrew Huberman: That's what they used?

Andrew Huberman: Oh, like, angry faces and that kind of... The faces?

Alex Honnold: Yeah. It was...

Alex Honnold: It wasn't even faces. It was random stuff, like, I don't know, a gun and then a light socket.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Okay, yeah.

Alex Honnold: You know, some things that are neutral, some things that are whatever.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. I should have designed the experiment. My lab used to work on fear.

Alex Honnold: Well, I think it was a standardized thing, I think.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. No, it's a...

Alex Honnold: I think it was some battery, then gave us the...

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. I'm not trying to be disparaging of the research. My lab used to work on fear. We used VR.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: That's how I met Michael Muller, our friend in common.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: He took me down to Guadalupe. We did two times... So, we went down there in 2016 and 2017, doing cage exit diving with great whites, filming to get the VR. And I'll tell you, in real life, it's a hell of a lot scarier than it is...

Alex Honnold: Yeah, totally, than in VR.

Andrew Huberman: But along the lines of dying when you're doing the other thing, not the main thing, the cage exit part ended up being a lot safer. I had an air failure while in the cage. I was on that hookah line, and I was alone in the cage when it happened. And I'll tell you, that was a lot more terrifying than being out of the cage with the sharks, because when you're out of the cage, you're on scuba, and you have some degree of control over... You can shoot for the surface.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: When you're in the cage, and you run out of air, and you're alone, you're just terrified, and you're hosed.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Yeah, you're just caged underwater. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: No pun intended.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You're not hosed enough.

Alex Honnold: You're unhosed, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, you know, it speaks to this thing that, when there's this big, scary thing and you're really locked in, you often miss the more trivial-seeming, but real danger that's close up.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: But this is, I think, one of the real values of climbing is I think that as a climber, you spend all your time thinking about risk and managing risk and mitigating risk and all those kinds of things. And so, I think that... I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I do feel good at evaluating risks like that, you know. Like, what is the actual dangerous thing? What's sketchy about this situation? And it just often isn't the thing that people are looking at, you know?\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And that's what I was talking about earlier with people watching videos of free soloing or whatever else. They're like, "That's sketchy." And I'm like, "Well, you know, might be in some ways, but probably not for all the reasons that you're thinking." You know what I mean? Like, the obvious visual thing is probably not the big challenge.

Andrew Huberman: And it sounds a little clich\'e9, but you're doing what you love, you know. It's interesting. I think one of the biggest risks that I think about now, as I get older, is the non-daily lethal risk of grinding it out in a job you don't like, and then, one day, you wake up and you're like, "Wow, there's no time machine. Like, I can't go back and get that vitality and that time."

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Like, what should I have been doing?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. And that's where I think this idea of doing what you love really counts, whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else, or whether or not you can also go to school, but doing something that you love very, very much.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Either way, you're going to die.

Andrew Huberman: Either way you're going to die.

Alex Honnold: And you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited about, than die regretting all the things you didn't do.

Andrew Huberman: Totally.

Alex Honnold: I mean, I think that that actually, that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in a way, is like, my father died when I was 19. And he died of a heart attack unexpectedly, just a freak thing, running through an airport, at age 55. And you know, and I think for a teenager, that makes an impression, where you're sort of like, "Oh, this could end at any moment." And actually, both my grandfathers had just died at roughly the same time. So, I think for an impressionable teen, you're sort of like, "Oh, everybody dies." Like, do you get to do all the things that you want to do before you go?\'a0

Alex Honnold: And I think my father... My father was a community college professor, taught language, and he ostensibly lived a risk-free life, relatively sedentary. I mean, he traveled widely. Like, he was great. But by any risk perception thing, you'd be like, "Oh, he's a professor. Like, he's fine." And yet he still died young and probably would've preferred to do a lot of other things before he went. I'm sort of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you got to do all those things.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I want to talk to you about your philosophy on death and time, and kind of life arc. And you've already started. So, thank you for that. Because I would say most of my friends who started families young are people who... These are male friends whose dads died young. And so, they had this very keen sense of the finite duration of life. And, you know, Steve Jobs talked about this. So, you're very... And he died young. He seemed to have some sense of how long he was going to live, and really wanted to pack things in. And I don't know why that was. He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, et cetera. But barring accident or injury, we don't really know when we're going to die.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But sometimes I think, we get the sense based on relatives. And I can remember a time in my life when I... Of course, I knew I was going to die, but I lived in a way that I just felt like I had all the time in the world, despite pursuing things.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And I think with each passing year, I'm like, "Oh, wow, like, the wall's coming."

Alex Honnold: You're like, "It's winding down.".

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, like, "We gotta get the show on the road."

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Totally, totally.

Andrew Huberman: And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's interesting that, you know, it does seem that having a parent die has a profound impact on where you set that horizon.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Yeah, galvanizing effect for sure.

Andrew Huberman: You realize, like, today is part of an arc that has an endpoint.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. I mean, you say we know that, but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough. You know what I mean? I think most people live with a little too much open ended. Because nobody wants to talk about death. Nobody wants to talk about the consequences of like... Because people think this is morbid, or it's just not...

Alex Honnold: But the thing is like, we're all going to freaking die. You know? It's like, are we going to be proud of what we did before we died? Like, I don't know. I mean, yeah. We'll see. It's kind of clich\'e9 to be like, "Oh, better to die young and burn brightly," and all that kind of stuff. But to some extent, I think there's a middle ground where you're like, it's better to try hard and do things that you're proud of. And either way, you're going to die.

Andrew Huberman: I agree. I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect. So many rock and roll musicians die at 27.

Alex Honnold: Hmm. It's their quarter-life crisis.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Quarter-life crisis. I haven't heard of the quarter-life crisis.

Alex Honnold: You never heard of quarter-life... Like, all my friends have gone through a quarter-life crisis.

Andrew Huberman: No.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, really?

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Kind of.

Andrew Huberman: And when does that happen?

Alex Honnold: Well, like 25 or 27, whatever.

Andrew Huberman: Interesting. No, I was just so focused on becoming a neuroscientist that I didn't know what else I would do besides that at 25. I think I was just so locked in. But I've always been a little bit obsessive. Have you always been a little bit like, whatever you're into, you're into? I guess it's been climbing.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. I was just lucky to get into climbing when I was 10. So, this is something that I've just been into forever.

Andrew Huberman: So, did you play LEGOs as a kid or anything?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, and I was psycho about my LEGOs.

Andrew Huberman: You were psycho about LEGOs.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah. Psycho.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Like, I didn't have a bed in my room because I had LEGOs covered across the whole floor, basically. I slept in a corner, and I just had LEGOs all over.

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

Alex Honnold: It was kind of psycho.

Andrew Huberman: Do you see some of this in your kids?

Alex Honnold: Not quite that yet, but they're pretty young, so it's hard to tell.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But yeah, we'll see.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.\'a0

Alex Honnold: We'll see. I kind of think it's all about having personality. Like, do a thing, do it well. Like, get excited about things. I mean, there are just so many people on earth, and they all do different things. Like, you might as well be the person to do that one particular thing and just really do it.

Andrew Huberman: No, I agree. That's the juice. I mean, I think for some of us, I just know from my own life experience, I thought I was certainly going to just get into skateboarding. Many of my friends became professional skateboarders, got really good at it, or worked in the industry. And early on, I was getting hurt, and I realized, "I'm not very good at this." And then when I finally plugged into academics and learning, I was like, "This is the thing." And I loved it.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And then eventually, I pivoted to this thing, which I didn't anticipate. But I do think that going all in on something, it provides a really wonderful feedback loop that one can... Like, you feel, it makes you feel alive to progress.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, you're doing a thing. You're psyched. Yeah, yeah.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Especially when it's hard.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Especially when it's hard.

Alex Honnold: I've literally spent my whole life basically, all in on climbing, and I'm still... I just love going rock climbing, you know? It's like, I mean, I think that's really the goal of parenting, is to help your kid find something that they're that psyched about, like something that they can commit to, and something that will drive them, something they're passionate about. And so, I mean, we'll see with our kids, but it's like, the idea is just to let them experience enough things that they can find whatever they... whatever gets them out of bed every day.

Andrew Huberman: They certainly are in the right environment to flourish with it. You mentioned that climbing is in the Olympics. I could see, and I've observed in other sports where the parents are kind of more obsessive than the kid, and then the kid burns out on it.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: I read Andre Agassi's book, "Open," which is basically a story of his dad pushing him to play a game he did not want to play.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Yeah, that's like the...

Alex Honnold: Yeah. That may be the best sports memoir ever.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: That's a great book.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Great book. Yeah, his dad was a boxer and basically trained him in tennis like a boxer.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. The psycho, yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so sort of like the light-handed approach of like... I think kids know. I mean, you kind of let them forage, right?

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: No, we're taking the light-handed approach for sure.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I mean, our kids will obviously know how to climb, because that's what we do all the time and...\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But so far, we just go hiking. Like, we haven't forced them to climb. We have a little bit of a home gym at home, like a little climbing garage. And so the girls can play on the wall whenever they want to. But there's certainly never any pressure to do anything.

Andrew Huberman: I read, and please correct me if this is inaccurate, but that it was during college that you had some family members pass away, and when you really leaned into just climbing more. I think it's somewhere on the internet that you were climbing out in Indian Rock, which is interesting to me because I went to graduate school in Berkeley and lived in Berkeley for a long time.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You went to Cal?

Andrew Huberman: I went to Cal for my master's.

Alex Honnold: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Andrew Huberman: And then, I lived in Berkeley even when I was a postdoc at Stanford. I love Berkeley.

Alex Honnold: I was like, "You went from Cal to Stanford?" Are you even allowed to do that?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Right. Yeah, the enemy, the enemy.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's like did they take you?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Born at Stanford, trained at Stanford, and still spent a lot of time in Berkeley.

Alex Honnold: Wow. Wow.

Andrew Huberman: I liked the culture in Berkeley then, and I liked the food. So, I used to take pizzas from The Cheeseboard up to Indian Rock.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And so while you were climbing Indian Rock, I was eating and picnicking on Indian Rock.\'a0

Alex Honnold: \'a0Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's amazing. So would you just pull little solo journeys out there? This is, by the way, folks, a big steep rock, but on one face it's gradual. It literally has like rock couches where couples go on dates, and you eat some pizza and hang out, and get an amazing view.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: And beautiful view overlooking the city. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so you were climbing up the back of it, which is anything but...

Alex Honnold: Well, actually, I was mostly traversing the bottom of it. There's tons of like... Basically, you can contour the whole base of the rock. And so, you can climb for a couple of hundred feet basically, without touching the ground. So, you just go back and forth doing laps and, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Really cool.

Alex Honnold: I mean, from where I was living at Berkeley, there's only, I don't know, like a 30-minute walk to Indian Rock or something. So, I basically wasn't going to class.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I was just strolling to Indian Rock and traversing the wall back and forth. And then, that's why I dropped out after one year at Berkeley.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: It's just kind of like I don't know why I'm at university if I'm not actually... Actually, it's more complicated than that, because that year, I got into the Youth Worlds, just like an international thing. And so, I was going to take the semester off to go to Worlds and travel and climb a little bit. And so, now I've just taken whatever, like 35 semesters off or something.

Andrew Huberman: You're on leave of absence still?

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, I think after some point they were like, "You're done."

Andrew Huberman: They closed the hatch.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Yeah, I think they closed that.\'a0

Andrew Huberman: Well, it worked out. It certainly worked out. Yeah, the thing that we find ourselves doing when we should be doing something else, in the positive sense of it, like, I mean, that often is the thing, like it's that you obsess over. Right.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. I mean, it's just hard to know with that stuff, though, because obviously, for most people, they probably should get an education and get a job of some kind. Like, even if you're a really passionate climber, I mean, most people probably aren't going to make a living as a professional climber because it's just too small an industry, and you know, it depends on your level and everything. I mean, I think I got kind of lucky.\'a0

Alex Honnold: I mean, in a lot of ways, I got lucky, also just because I like soloing, and it's like such a niche and not that many people do it, and the level just wasn't that high. And so, I sometimes joke, it's easy to be the best if you're the only one doing it. You know, it's like, it's easy to compete as the only person in the field, and you're kind of like, "Well, that makes it chill." And so, you know, I think I got lucky in a lot of ways like that. And so, yeah, most people probably should finish university and climb, as they can.\'a0

Alex Honnold: That said, I mean, if you love doing a thing, it makes sense to maybe build your life around how you can do that thing as much as possible, just because it keeps you energized and fired up and makes the rest of your life better.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I think it was Ryan Holiday that said that, "If you don't know what to do with your life and you're still trying to figure it out, definitely stay in college."

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Because you know, there are all these tales of like Mark Zuckerberg leaving Harvard, and Steve Jobs dropping out of Reed College, and Alex Honnold leaving Berkeley, and eventually becoming the person that you are now. But you had a direction. There was another thing to lean into. It wasn't just, "Oh, I don't like this. I don't want to be here."

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. I mean, if you have nothing, then you drop out, and you just go play video games in your basement or something, like that's obviously not better than going to school. Like, you're better off going to school and broadening your horizons and doing whatever.\'a0

Alex Honnold: But yeah, I mean, I thought I was just taking some time off, and I thought that eventually I'd become a mountain guide or something, or like teach at summer camps, or I don't know, because especially at the time, the climbing industry was so much smaller, there wasn't any money. Like, I didn't think you could make a living as a professional climber. And so, I thought it was just kind of a fun thing I was doing in the van for a while before I'd find some kind of job or something. And then thankfully, the climbing industry has kind of scaled at the same rate that I did as a climber. And so, it all worked out.

Andrew Huberman: Is it the case that you didn't have any monetary aspirations when you were doing it? Like, it sounds like you didn't, but did you ever have the conversation with your mom, like, you know, "How are you going to make a living?" Or...

Alex Honnold: No. Well, so I mean, I mentioned that my dad died. So, my parents had just gotten divorced, and my dad had left enough for my sister and me to finish college. And so, I took that money and put it in bonds, which I don't know what that is, but you know. So, I was making like a couple of hundred bucks a month in bonds. And then, I stole the family minivan.\'a0

Alex Honnold: Like I said, my two grandfathers had died before, so I basically... My mom had inherited this little car that... So, she was driving my grandpa's car. I took the family minivan. I was making a couple of hundred bucks in bonds, and basically, that just kind of covered any of the pressure, like the financial pressure, whereas that gave me enough of a buffer that I was like, "Well, for several years at least, I could just kind of live in this minivan and see what happens."\'a0

Alex Honnold: And then after a couple years, I was sponsored, I was getting free product. I was getting like a very, very small amount of money, but some amount of money, which is enough to sort of justify the whole thing, where you're like, "Oh, companies are paying me to do this thing. I should see how well I can do it." And then, it all kind of took off from there. But yeah, I mean, that's one of the ways in which I was very lucky as a climber, you know. There was just enough financial cushion that I could try to do the thing as much as I wanted for a couple of years and see how it played out, and it just happened to work out well.

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Andrew Huberman: It's going to sound like an odd question, but I'm very curious about this. You've been in beautiful places, like just-- And you get a very different view of those places than most people. There's a really great YouTube Short of you hanging on by one arm during a climb, which itself is impressive to the observer. But then you take some moments, and you look around, and you're just like checking out the scene.

Andrew Huberman: You're clearly not looking at the rock. That I know even as a non-expert.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And so I'm wondering this. I have reasons to ask. Do you ever snap photos with your mind, your mind's eye? Like, do you have a clear recollection of like, "Oh, I'm going to snap a shot of this. Like, keep this one in the memory bank?"

Alex Honnold: No, I can't remember.

Andrew Huberman: No?

Alex Honnold: I mean, to me it's more the living there day in and day out.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Like, you know, with free soloing El Cap, let's say, I mean, I spent months on the wall, and it's like just every day, you're going up before sunrise a lot of the time, so you're watching the sunrise over Half Dome, and it's super beautiful. And then you're going down at sunset, and you're watching the moon, and it's just day in and day out. It's the most beautiful place on earth in all these amazing conditions.

Alex Honnold: You know, sometimes it starts snowing, sometimes it's raining. It's like there are clouds swirling and mist or whatever, and you're just like, "Oh, it's amazing." But I don't really remember any specific like a snapshot of that. It's more just the overall. You're like, "Oh, it's just this amazing place."

Andrew Huberman: It's pretty awesome existence.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, like the freaking-- What is it? With Yosemite Falls the-- Have you ever seen the moon rainbow thing?

Andrew Huberman: The firelight thing, where...

Alex Honnold: No, the Firefall is a different thing. That's with the moon in-- That's a different time of year. In May or June, if you get a full moon. Oh, the moonbow. That's what it is.

Andrew Huberman: The moonbow.

Alex Honnold: It's like when Yosemite Falls will cast a moonbow. Like, you'll be able to see a rainbow from the moonlight in the waterfall when it's at peak water. It's totally insane. My wife and I went for a romantic walk to go look at the moonbow one season because you're just there and you're like, "That's pretty cool." You know, it's like it's a rainbow at night.

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

Alex Honnold: It's really cool.

Andrew Huberman: We're going to send a lot of people to Yosemite by virtue of Clouds Rest, and for the non-climbers or hikers.

Alex Honnold: I still think it's crazy that you've climbed Clouds Rest more than once and never climbed Half Dome. Because Clouds Rest, like-

Andrew Huberman: No, I've run Clouds Rest, rucked it, I've done it-- I've probably done Clouds Rest at least a dozen times.

Alex Honnold: That is crazy.

Andrew Huberman: And I love that hike.

Alex Honnold: Because you have to go past Half Dome, and Half Dome is the much more famous cousin that's closer and easier and kind of more spectacular.

Andrew Huberman: Well, you have to drive past it. So to be clear, I'm starting from sunrise.

Alex Honnold: Oh, you've been doing it-- Oh, you're going from Tuolumne.

Andrew Huberman: I'm starting from-- I'm going from Tuolumne.

Alex Honnold: Oh, I'm way less impressed.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay, good, okay, good.

Alex Honnold: Oh, I thought you were coming from the valley floor.

Andrew Huberman: Okay, all right, good. Because I was thinking to myself, I was like, Clouds Rest is 15 miles up and back. It's not gnarly.

Alex Honnold: No, but going from the valley floor is really hard.

Andrew Huberman: Going from the valley floor, sorry.

Alex Honnold: Okay.

Andrew Huberman: I actually don't know many people who come up from the valley floor anymore.

Alex Honnold: I've only done it from the valley floor.

Andrew Huberman: People tend to start at sunrise and then go down Clouds Rest, kind of go down the spine a bit toward Half Dome, and then-- I know this because then recently-

Alex Honnold: Yeah, there are trails between them and it's not easy.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Honnold: That's so funny because you were talking about rucking a heavy bag up there, and I was like, "Man, that is a hard walk from the valley floor."

Andrew Huberman: No, no, no, no.

Alex Honnold: Because I'm thinking everything from the valley floor because I spent so much time in Yosemite. Like, in the valley.

Andrew Huberman: I'm starting at about 8,000 feet, finishing at about 10,000 feet.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Honnold: I'm so much less impressed.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, your daughters do this.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, well, not quite yet, but...

Andrew Huberman: Your three and a half year old daughter. That's what I was saying. I was like, "Wow, he's right." Okay. I mean, it's tough. I mean, 2,000-

Alex Honnold: Yeah. No, no, it's still tough.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, it's like a workout.

Alex Honnold: But going from the valley floor is really tough.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's brutal.

Alex Honnold: Because I had one season in Yosemite where, for whatever reason, I wasn't really motivated for climbing goals, and I called it. I said that I retired, and I was on a trail running season. Though it's funny because I supported a bunch of my friends on things, and I was bouldering with all my friends. And so, I said that I have a climbing journal.

Alex Honnold: And so, by the end of the season, if you look through the journal, it would look like a normal season where almost every day I was climbing with somebody, I was doing something. And then by the end of the season, I actually did a couple of things I was kind of proud of. But the mindset going into it was like, "I don't care. I'm just here having fun. I'm trail running, and I'm supporting my friends on things, and that's it."

Alex Honnold: And one of my big things that season was that I ran Clouds Rest from the valley floor. But to me, that was like a triumph of trail running, because that's, like, pretty big. It was like really-

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, how long is that?

Alex Honnold: I don't know. It's like 5,000 feet over or 6,000. I don't know.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: It's like so far.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Let's see, because-

Alex Honnold: It was the hardest thing I'd ever run, for sure.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you're probably going at least 3 to 4,000 feet from the valley floor up to the meadows and then another 2,000 up to Clouds Rest.

Alex Honnold: Well, no, the valley floor is four and the top of Clouds Rest is 10 something.

Andrew Huberman: It's about 10?

Alex Honnold: So you're doing six, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: So it's like-

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

Alex Honnold: For me, I was like, "Oh, that's a lot." But, anyway.

Andrew Huberman: That's a trail runner.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And you're carrying water, or you grab water along the way.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I just had a little bottle and fill in the rivers and...

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, I don't consider myself a serious trail runner or mountaineer, certainly, but ever since I got my driver's license, it was like Yosemite.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's the best.

Andrew Huberman: And Glacier is amazing. You know, and I swear I'm not sent here by the National Parks Service, but I think Glacier's got some incredible scenery that everyone should make it to. Have you done a lot of climbing in Glacier?

Alex Honnold: No. Actually, I don't think there is that much climbing in Glacier National Park. But I've actually biked past it on the way to Alaska for this random journey I did.

Andrew Huberman: Just biking, you know.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. But, no, I haven't done much in there.

Andrew Huberman: What are the-- if any cultural differences or climbing in the United States versus in Europe? It seems like guys get training in the Alps. I keep saying "guys," but I want to be fair, not for politically people.

Alex Honnold: People, anybody.

Andrew Huberman: I'm not saying this for politically correct reasons, but there's a movie out very soon, actually an IMAX movie.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I saw the trailer, too. It was a friend of yours.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: A woman who's-- What did she climb? She's climbed the El Cap?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, she's climbed El Cap in a day, like free in a day, this route called Golden Gate.

Andrew Huberman: Uh-huh.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, actually, surprisingly, I'm in that film much more than I thought because I supported her on each of her attempts. We're talking about Emily Harrington, who's also a professional climber who, yeah, freed this route called Golden Gate in a day. And the film's called "Girl Climber," and I think it comes out-

Andrew Huberman: The 24th.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, isn't that soon? Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Soon.

Andrew Huberman: It's one day in an IMAX, but then presumably it will be released.

Alex Honnold: And then some kind of theatrical release.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

Alex Honnold: But I think it'll be a relatively small theatrical release and then eventually stream and whatever. But anyway, this film, "Girl Climber," Yeah, it's funny because she worked on this goal for a long time, and I'd kind of forgotten that I basically supported her on each of her attempts.

Alex Honnold: Because when you support somebody, I mean, this is kind of like crewing somebody's race or something. You know, when you support somebody, it's basically a rest day for you. You're having a nice day. You're supporting a friend. It's like no pressure. It's all really chill. And so the days that I supported her were all like...

Alex Honnold: You know, I mean, I remember them, but they were just one day throughout a big season where I'd be working on other climbing goals, like all the things that I'm working on. And it's just like a fun day supporting a friend. But then I went and watched the movie, and it's like, "Oh, every time she tries the wall, I'm there supporting her." And I was like, "Oh God, I kind of forgot about all these things a couple of years ago." And I don't know.

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's funny seeing the film. It's really inspiring.

Andrew Huberman: Is the route that she took particularly difficult? What's the milestone that she achieves there?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's like she was the first woman to do that route in a day, free in a day. That route's like a harder version of the Free Rider, the thing that I free soloed in the film "Free Solo." But yeah, I mean, honestly, I think the film does a good job of not trying to portray it as anything more than it is. I mean, it's a very difficult climbing achievement, but it's not the hardest thing ever done. It's not the first time that, you know? But it's very hard.

Alex Honnold: And if you watch the film, you see what makes it meaningful is the level of effort that she puts into it. It's like, it's hard for her. She's a great climber, and she puts a lot into it, a lot of herself into it, and eventually, I don't want to spoil it, but eventually overcomes and manages to do this thing that's really hard for her. And I think, which in a lot of ways is, I mean, that's climbing in a nutshell. It's like, none of it really matters because even free soloing El Cap, I mean, you can walk around the back. You know, it's like, why put in years of effort into climbing the face when you can walk around the back?" Like, all of climbing is relatively meaningless.

Alex Honnold: And so, ultimately, it's the effort that we put into it that has value. And so, I think that's what the film "Girl Climber" does a really good job of, is that you're sort of like, "Oh, wow," she puts a lot into it and therefore gets a lot out of it for herself.

Andrew Huberman: Awesome. And I haven't seen it yet, but clearly for the observer too, I mean, I find it amazing that humans love to see other humans accomplish great feats. You know?

Alex Honnold: Well, I think they love to see the effort. I mean, the accomplishment, of course, but you love seeing somebody work really hard at something, try really hard, like face their fears, overcome, and then ideally achieve something.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But I think it's the effort that's so inspiring. Like, I mean, at least personally, I love to see other people try that hard because it's a reminder that I can try that hard if I want to.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. No, I completely agree. I had made this little list before we started, and trying to just let my unconscious mind guide it more than really scripting it out carefully. And it says, "Evel Knievel," because when I was growing up, like, everything was Evel Knievel. Turned out there were many of them. It's a whole family.

Alex Honnold: Oh, yeah?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, a bunch of Evel Knievels.

Alex Honnold: The Knievels?

Andrew Huberman: The Knievels, yeah.

Alex Honnold: Huh.

Andrew Huberman: And you know, jumping whatever 50, maybe not 50 length to length, but semi-trucks, and I think, you know, there's the element of danger. It's super impressive.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Danny Way growing up, because I knew that kid who's now a full-grown man doing all sorts of crazy stuff to the point where he was starting to go after things that for skateboards just felt a little bit, kind of outside the box, like land speed records and things like that, you know, but jumping out of helicopters and certainly grump- jumping the Great Wall of China, just engineering it from scratch, was super impressive.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And then I've got you here, and then Hunter Thompson, like the guy, was just all about how many drug experiences he could have.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And then at his funeral was actually-- He loved the town of Aspen. He had his ashes exploded over the town of Aspen in a firework show. So that's going out the way you lived, you know?

Alex Honnold: That is fitting.

Andrew Huberman: Right. So I think you're absolutely right, however, that we love to touch into the amount of effort and training that's required. I mean, that's the Rocky movies. That's pretty much everything.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And that's really where the work is. Like, that should be the inspiring part.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Right? Because that's the part that one can adopt.

Alex Honnold: I mean, the Rocky training montage, that's the best part of the movie. I mean, a lot of those films, the best part is the training montage where it's like cuts to the person working really, really hard for a long time getting swole, and then you get to the actual them doing the thing.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And them doing the thing is cool. But them getting ready to do the thing is often the part that you're like, "That's so awesome. I'm all fired up."

Andrew Huberman: Totally. It's the chasing chickens and all the weird stuff.

Andrew Huberman: Speaking of which, for the non-climber, what would be the strangest aspect to your training? Do you train your feet? Do you train your hands in ways that are...

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: No feet.

Alex Honnold: But it's probably the dangling from your fingertips that I think a non-climber would...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I mean, I think that's the type of thing that a non-climber just can't even interface with. Like, they just can't hang from an edge, you know, as like from a small-- It's like the training-your-fingertip type of stuff.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, man, I think the-- Though I mean, now there have been so many mainstream climbing things that I think people have a sense that that's what it is. You dangle on tiny edges and do pull-ups and all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman: Well, I think I follow an Instagram account that's actually informative. It's a former army guy. He's a rock climber. And so it's mainly focused on pull-ups and things like that, and touching into how if you change the speed of the initial one-arm pull-up, like I learned to blast through the bar, through and above the bar, and let go, and then catch it again generates a completely different sort of motor neuron adaptation response than just doing a bunch of pull-ups or a slow one-arm pull-ups.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Like, the ability to be ballistic and then also the eccentric catch yourself and lower.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And it seems to have a lot of parallels with climbing. Maybe I should just go on a wall and climb, it sounds like. So I imagine if you're bouldering, you end up doing all this stuff in the process of bouldering.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Actually, I was immediately like, "So should I be going faster when I do pull-ups?" Because I've been doing one-arms at the end of a session, but my one-arms are pretty slow, you know? You just grab the bar, and you just struggle until you do a-

Andrew Huberman: Well, I mean, he talks about a lot of people can do a lot of pull-ups in a full range, slow, concentric, and eccentric, but that they rarely ever get to, like, muscle-ups or to one-arm pull-ups at the kind of level that he's pulling a ton of weight because there are a number of things that he suggests.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: We can link to this account. There's some training of forearms, brachialis, and hands that's required. But he said that not being able to generate enough force at the beginning is the reason a lot of people don't get to the muscle-up, because with the muscle-up, there's a little bit of a kip involved, at least when one's first learning it.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And so people are used to kind of dragging themselves in low gear out of the bottom.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: It's going to be a long while before they have the strength to do a muscle-up. Whereas if you can blast yourself out of the bottom, you sort of end up almost above the bar at some point. Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Totally.

Alex Honnold: I actually just started doing muscle-ups again, like a couple of months ago, in my little home gym. And I was like, "I haven't done a muscle-up since I was a teenager." You know, I was like, as a kind of gym feat when you're a kid, just to see if you can. And as an adult also living in a van, obviously, you can't do muscle-ups because there's nothing to muscle up on.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Right, right, right, right, right.

Alex Honnold: You're like hanging from a little bar inside the van. But yeah, I started doing them again. I was like, "Oh wow, it's so explosive."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I was kind of like, "Wow, what a dude." I was so psyched I could still do them.

Andrew Huberman: Well, yeah, then you don't need his help. But I'll send you the discount so you can take a look. He's got some interesting progressions.

Alex Honnold: Well, I did want to-- I mean, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to chat with Huberman." I was like, "So what am I supposed to be doing?" You know what I mean?

Andrew Huberman: Oh, we can talk about that, but-

Alex Honnold: But that's the thing, it's like, well, because I've just been doing all the same training stuff for 30 years. And obviously, I read all the books and all my friends are professional climbers.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: So, we talk about this kind of stuff all the time. But there are a lot of things where you're always kind of like, as a self-trained, self-coached athlete to some extent, you're kind of like, "Should I be doing this more? Should I be doing this less?" Like, I was training a bunch this summer and was really motivated, and then I've kind of just the pendulum has kind of just swung back to being like, "Do I need to do trainee stuff like the calisthenics, the extra workout stuff? Or should I just go pure climbing?" Because to some extent, climbing, if you want to be a good climber, you just climb.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Like, if you have energy left over, you should just climb harder or climb more. You don't necessarily need to save it for workout stuff and training stuff. So I don't know, but yeah. What do you think?

Andrew Huberman: Okay. Well, I'm not going to tell-

Alex Honnold: Even though you're not a climber. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I'll [unintelligible] how to change his training, especially before you take on a big milestone. I mean, all I can say is "What?" And I don't have a degree in exercise physiology. What I do have a degree in is 35 years of trying to get stronger.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, of like strength training, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I'm naturally pretty, I would say, like, medium joints. I'm not real thick joints, like my bulldog. You know, like some of those guys that just have naturally, their joints.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But I manage to keep in some endurance and some degree of explosivity. But mostly, strength and endurance have been the two main things.

Andrew Huberman: To me, the thing that has just been the most beneficial is what Pavel Tsatsouline taught me when he came here, which is take a weight that you can maybe do six or seven, maybe eight reps with and do three repetitions. Set it down and just do many more sets and rest a long period of time, if you have time to do that. That really works those fast-twitch motor units.

Alex Honnold: You mean do the do the reps faster?

Andrew Huberman: Well, no, not necessarily. So if you take a weight that you could do maximum eight, like you'd fail somewhere between seven and eight repetitions.

Alex Honnold: Okay.

Andrew Huberman: You take the weight, maybe even add a little bit, and you just do three repetitions. You don't go to failure, but you do many more sets.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So you might do, let's say, some sort of push-pull, so like a shoulder press of some sort or-- And then if you could get eight, you do three or four, but then you go do your pull-ups. You might do your, you know, sort of ballistic pull-ups that we were talking about before. I'm actually getting a lot of progress from those. Those like trying to blast through and past the bar and kind of catch it below.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Can you do a muscle-up?

Andrew Huberman: I'm almost there.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I'm kipping too much when I do it.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So I'm doing it, but I'm kind of like throwing myself up there. I'm not doing, like, a super controlled muscle-up yet. Soon.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: That's the goal. But not training to failure seems to be really beneficial if you don't want to eat into your recovery too much. There's something about hitting muscular failure that's great for generating hypertrophy, but it really, according to Pavel, and I'm finding this too, it sort of teaches your nervous system to reach that static point where you can't move any longer, and it really eats into your recovery ability.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So I'm able to now train muscle groups that I used to only be able to recover if I train them once or twice a week. I can train them like three or four days a week.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And I'm making much more progress overall. But there's no single set where I'm like grinding out that last final rep.

Alex Honnold: That's interesting. So bench pressing for example.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: So like that's actually the only weight that I move around is I bench...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: When I'm at home and have my own little home gym, I bench press like twice a week, let's say.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And I feel like it's good for shoulder stability, health. I don't know.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Alex Honnold: It's like nice to balanced because as a climber you're always pulling.

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

Alex Honnold: So it's like, that's my only pushing basically.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know something about that. Yeah.

Alex Honnold: So I can do like... I normally do three sets of five or six.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: It's just kind of like a basic something. So you're saying I should do like six sets or like eight?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Six.

Alex Honnold: Eight sets of three or something.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Maybe eight sets of three to four with slightly more weight, but don't go to failure. And obviously have a spotter.

Alex Honnold: Huh.

Andrew Huberman: There are these horrible instances where people are benching at home, and they don't have a spotter.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Well, I only have dumbbells anyway, so... yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Okay, perfect. That's the best way to do it.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, like that's the type of thing, too. Also, I kind of like the dumbbells because it seems more like, so much of what I care about is shoulder stability and whatever, and I'm kind of like, "Oh, it seems like dumbbells are good for that."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Barbell bench, I'm going to catch a lot of shit for this, but barbell bench press, there's a lot of ego involved for people.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's too showy. I'm like, "I don't need that shit."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. I've never actually done a single rep max for barbell bench press.

Alex Honnold: Oh.

Andrew Huberman: Never been curious enough.

Alex Honnold: Because you don't have enough friends to help spot that much weight, yeah?

Andrew Huberman: Don't have enough friends. Exactly.

Alex Honnold: You need like six guys to hold the bar.

Andrew Huberman: I'm all alone, I'm studying, and I'm bench pressing alone in my basement.

Andrew Huberman: Another reason to use dumbbells. But yet, taking a weight that you could do seven or eight repetitions and doing three or four or maybe five, and then just setting it down and going doing something else, maybe for an opposing muscle group, and then coming back to it so that your total rest is somewhere in between.

Alex Honnold: I might try that, particularly for the benching, because I do actually get kind of sore from like, you know, it's kind of hard.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Being sore sucks.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And you get really strong. I never would've thought this because I came up in the lineage of-- I learned from Mike Mentzer. He was an ex-bodybuilder, but then he trained Dorian Yates, who won the Olympia many times.

Alex Honnold: Huh.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And that whole philosophy was around doing one or two sets to absolute failure with forced reps and drop sets and all the stuff that builds a lot of muscle but makes you very sore.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And so, Pavel sat right where you're sitting, and he was just like, "Try this. Find movements you can do safely, load up the bar, and do far fewer reps, many more sets.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And perhaps even divide those sets across two days during the week, as you're already doing."

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: As opposed to just training a muscle group once per week.

Alex Honnold: Do people do that? Doing something once a week?

Andrew Huberman: I only train my legs once a week, and I'm getting stronger most every workout.

Alex Honnold: Really?

Andrew Huberman: But I sprint on a separate day. So that's kind of a leg workout.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. That seems like a leg workout.

Andrew Huberman: I don't have great recovery ability. Never have.

Alex Honnold: And you know, pushing 50 and...

Andrew Huberman: What's that? And I'm pushing 50.

Alex Honnold: And you're pushing 50, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I didn't run from the valley floor.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Andrew Huberman: Right. You know, clouds... You know?

Andrew Huberman: Exactly. I definitely have found that if I avoid going to momentary muscular failure, as it's called, far less soreness, far better recovery, and you get really strong. Which is crazy. You would think the opposite.

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Do you think once a week is enough? Stimulus basically to build?

Andrew Huberman: If you do enough sets, but probably twice-- You know that the data seem to show that the muscle protein synthesis is initiated after those workouts, and then it takes anywhere from 48 to 72 hours before it subsides. I just personally find if I train my legs once a week, but then I sprint four or five days later, that's sort of two leg workouts.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You know?

Alex Honnold: That makes sense.

Andrew Huberman: So it's really twice a week. And then I do a push-pull day, and then I do a separate day for my arms and extremities, and that ends up training chest and shoulders and back again. So it's really twice per week, once directly, once indirectly.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, so you're doing all your stuff basically twice a week.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, but everything heavy.

Alex Honnold: That makes sense.

Andrew Huberman: Like, really heavy, never going-- I don't think I've done above eight reps this year.

Andrew Huberman: I'm stronger than ever, and I can run really far.

Alex Honnold: Mm.

Alex Honnold: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: Which is so the two things I set those-

Alex Honnold: Do you do a long run during the week or something?

Andrew Huberman: I do one, for me, very long run, which means an hour to an hour and a half of just running with a 10-pound weight vest.

Alex Honnold: Huh.

Alex Honnold: Really?

Alex Honnold: Oh, why is that?

Andrew Huberman: Just to make sure that the small stabilizing muscles are strong, and also because I want to be able to just show up to Clouds Rest and just do it.

Alex Honnold: Uh-huh.

Andrew Huberman: I don't want to have to train for things in life.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I can do that.

Andrew Huberman: And also, I love running. I mean, just that slow pace at first, it sucks. And then after about 20 minutes, you're just like, "I could go all day. This is awesome."

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I don't know. That's been my regimen now for almost 35 years, to train each muscle group once a week, directly, indirectly a long run, and I try and do one sprint run.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But again, I'm not going to tell Alex Honnold how to train, but you might find if you-

Alex Honnold: I'm always looking for ideas.

Andrew Huberman: If you don't like getting sore and you want to get stronger-

Alex Honnold: Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Andrew Huberman: You're hearing it from me, but it's really Pavel Tsatsouline that deserves the credit for this.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, no, I'll try that for sure. Because, particularly with something like benching, where it's like I don't really care about pushing muscles, but when your pec or whatever this muscle is connecting your shoulder, it's like-

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Your shoulder, upper back region.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's so sore, and then that kind of affects all your pulling as well.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: And so you're kind of like, "Oh, you just don't need to get that sore doing something that's like a side activity anyway."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. And I'm guessing you're already getting it from your climbing, but I've found that anytime I'm doing pushing, which is basically all the time, making sure that I train, like some rear deltoid type thing where you're pulling, getting that smaller muscle on the back of the shoulders. Because a lot of peopl-- You don't have this problem, but if you look at a lot of people who lift weights, they just stand passively, their thumbs kind of point towards their groin. Like, they're kind of internally rotated.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, rolling in, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, whereas if you look at people who kind of do the Fonzie thing, you want your shoulder-- You want your thumbs, like if you were just standing or sitting naturally, your thumbs pointing straight forward. So you're looking like-- Like, I've met Mike Tyson, and he's like this, but he spent his whole life in this peekaboo stance, right?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, totally.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Then you meet people like you or people who practice yoga regularly, or the really most impressive postures and physiques are the dancers.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Right? Like Erich Jarvis was on this podcast, he's a neuroscientist, but he was accepted into the Allen-- Is it Allen Ailey Dance Company? It was like an elite dance company, or you see a Twyla Tharp who's in her 80s.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, right, right.

Andrew Huberman: She doesn't look like she's rigidly upright. She's just upright.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And that's how I want to be when I'm in my 80s.

Alex Honnold: But that's so hard.

Andrew Huberman: Well, it's just she spends two hours a day in the gym seven days a week.

Alex Honnold: Wow.

Andrew Huberman: From 5:00 AM to 7:00 AM.

Alex Honnold: That is a friggin' routine.

Andrew Huberman: And she's in her 80s.

Andrew Huberman: And then three hard-boiled eggs, and then she gets to work.

Alex Honnold: Huh.

Andrew Huberman: Like, yeah.

Alex Honnold: I'm like, "That's a healthy lifestyle."

Andrew Huberman: And cognitively, she's just so strong.

Alex Honnold: Huh.

Andrew Huberman: You know? Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, no, climbers definitely have issues with posture like that because if you spend your whole life just pulling, like climbing, if you just climb, you're just doing pulling things, and so you kind of like...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So you're all bowed.

Andrew Huberman: Or, or they end up like this?

Alex Honnold: But actually this you kind of wind up hunched. I think it's because you still use some of these muscles for pulling, and so you just wind up kind of tight in different ways.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: But yeah, it's like the hunched back for fun.

Andrew Huberman: So things like they put you in a bridge pose and in spinal extension. Those seem to be very useful. Again, I'm not an elite athlete or even a competitive athlete, but I find that doing things like a long slow run, a sprint day, training heavy with weights, but being able to run for 30 minutes. I mean, it's just I don't think I need a degree in exercise physiology to just... It didn't make sense. I'm trying to be upper-end of average at everything, but that's very different than what you're trying to do, obviously. You're an elite athlete.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, but some of the stuff, like running?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Like, I went for a one-hour run yesterday. I've been trying to run one day a week, just like run for an hour once a week.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Great, yeah.

Alex Honnold: And then I try to do one kind of cardio adventure once a week, which is like climb a mountain or do something, you know?

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

Alex Honnold: Anywhere from like two to four hours, let's say, but hopefully with 3000-plus feet of vert or something. Just like go up a thing, kind of trot down.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: And that's kind of enough to maintain cardio.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: I mean, this is kind of like a family lifestyle because the thing is, like, when I was living in a van by myself, you were just doing that stuff on rest days all the time because you're kind of like, "Oh, I'm going to summit this new peak."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You're like, 'Check out this hike,' or 'Do whatever.' But now that I'm living in a place and, you know, taking kids to school and all that. It's like I kind of have to be a little more structured with just, like, I'm going to go and...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But so yeah, now I'm definitely thinking about all this a little more.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Just like, "Is this enough cardio? You know, does this work?"

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But I think that lays a good foundation to be able to do things. Like, I'm going to be in Yosemite this season, and you know, I'm aspiring to climb stuff on El Cap. Not free soloing necessarily, or not free soloing at all, but maybe some, like rope soloing, maybe some speed stuff, maybe whatever.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But either way, I just want to be able to climb 3000 feet relatively quickly without being that tired. And so it seems like for running or for mountain climbing, it's like, "Oh, well, you just have to be able to do that kind of vertical without getting too fatigued."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: You know?

Andrew Huberman: I think one day a week a long run, one day a week a 30-minute run at a faster clip, and then one day a week sprint training.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, you're covering all bases there.

Alex Honnold: That's three days a week of running, though.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: And I'm like, "I don't love running that much."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, but one of them is like 12 minutes long. You warm up for three minutes and then-

Alex Honnold: Is sprint training 12 minutes?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, because you warm up and then you run a 400 and then you walk a lap, you do a 200.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, okay.

Andrew Huberman: You walk a lap, you do a 100. And you're going not all out, all out.

Alex Honnold: But close.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you can hurt yourself sprinting all out, all out. We had Stu McMillan, who's an elite sprint coach, trains a lot of Olympians and gold medalists, and yeah, running full speed is how you hurt yourself.

Alex Honnold: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: You pop a hamstring or something, like you-

Alex Honnold: Are you at a track?

Andrew Huberman: I prefer doing it at the track. Sometimes I'll do it in the soft sand. And when I use a vest, I should say, and I have no sponsorship relationship with them. Amorpho makes these vests are like, it looks...

Alex Honnold: Oh.

Andrew Huberman: And it's kind of funny to call it this, but it looks more like a kind of vest that, you know, like a dress vest.

Andrew Huberman: And it's got little ball bearings in it.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Oh.

Andrew Huberman: So it's not like one of those police-type vests.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's not.

Andrew Huberman: And so that 8 or 10 pounds that they make up to 12 pounds, I think, it is just enough to give you some extra work on that long run. And then on the day when you sprint, you feel like you have, you know, jet propulsion.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You know, I feel like that. I realize I don't.

Alex Honnold: Interesting.

Andrew Huberman: But yeah, I realize I don't.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, totally, totally.

Andrew Huberman: And then all the little stabilizer things, like you don't have any aching, like you're-

Alex Honnold: Not really.

Andrew Huberman: You seem very balanced in terms of your overall structure. That's one thing that I've really noticed about climbers. Like, you see guys that are in the gym, I've spent a fair amount of time in gyms, and there's this phenotype where they've got these big, wide shoulders, a wide back, and the whole thing, and then they've got this little head and a little neck. And you go, "Well, their upper spot..." And they're not training their neck, and it looks crazy.

Alex Honnold: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, I don't know if anyone's told them this, but they're, like-- You know, I walk by, and I'm like, "Don't skip neck day." You know? But when a body is out of balance like that, like if you saw a giant dog with a tiny head and neck, you'd be like, "That dog is crazy-looking."

Alex Honnold: I mean, is there a neck day?

Alex Honnold: There are a lot of dog breeds like that where you're like, "That dog..."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: You're like, "Hard to believe it came from a wolf."

Andrew Huberman: Exactly.

Alex Honnold: You're like, "That's funny."

Andrew Huberman: They're so inbred. So, right, the healthiest version of something can move best. It's always fairly balanced. It seems like climbers are very balanced across their whole body.

Alex Honnold: No, I think climbing is one of the healthiest sports and lifestyles, and also, it's so fun. Like, going to a gym, you hang out with your friends. It's mostly really chill. You mostly hang out and chitchat. And like, if you do a gym session, you feel like you just went and hung out with your friends the whole time. But then you also wind up fit and mobile and pretty strong. And so much of climbing is strength-to-weight. And so, you just wind up kind of lean and not like a big gym bro kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Which I think is healthier as one ages, too. Like, you want to maintain muscle and hold onto muscle, but there's all sorts of things associated with being heavily muscled where people end up with some kind of sleep apnea or pseudo sleep apnea because the neck is thick and it blocks the airwaves. And sleep apnea is one of the biggest health risks.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You know, people, not just heart attacks during sleep, but you're basically clogging all the blood flow and cleaning out of your brain that happens during sleep. It's very, very common in bigger people, either because they're fat or heavily muscled.

Alex Honnold: Oh my.

Andrew Huberman: But it's one of the reasons a lot of bodybuilders die.

Alex Honnold: I'm like, "Thank goodness I've never put on that much muscle."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, you can clearly generate a lot of force doing what you're doing. I'm curious how you deal with cramps when you're on the rock. Like, you don't have-

Alex Honnold: No, you just don't really cramp.

Andrew Huberman: You don't cramp?

Alex Honnold: Yeah. Yeah, no, really. I've never-- I mean, sometimes, you know, if you're trying to climb El Cap in a day, like an 18-hour ascent or something like climbing with a rope, but free ascents. Like, basically, if you're doing really long climbs, some of my friends sometimes will cramp because you're late into a post 12 hours into an athletic activity, you're just a little more likely.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: But I never have.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Pretty much in general, all my athletic performance is always a steady decline, where I start and I'm doing great, and then over the next 10 to 48 hours, I just slowly get worse at a relatively linear rate.

Andrew Huberman: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Except that normally, before sunrise of the next day, it starts to drop quite a bit more. You know, like as you start getting close to 24 hours, you're like, "I'm pretty fucking tired."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Honnold: But then when the sun comes up, you've really jolt, like boost back up again. And so then you're pretty good again.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: You just keep on the linear decline.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. So these are all-night climbs?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, I mean, I've done quite a number of things now that are like more than 24-hour outings, you know? I mean, that's typically climbing a mountain, sort of you're like hiking and climbing and then hiking some more and climbing some more, doing whatever. But yeah, generally, by 24 to 36 hours, you're just a worse version of what you used to be.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Alex Honnold: You know, you're just tired.

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And risk goes up when you're sleep-deprived. I mean, that's-

Alex Honnold: Well, like where, yeah, judgment gets worse. Reflexes get worse. Like, everything is worse.

Andrew Huberman: Sleep is key.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But yeah, that circadian clock phenomenon where you've been up all night but then you start waking up again, it's pretty incredible.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, as soon as you see the sun.

Alex Honnold: I mean, also some of it with outdoor stuff is that just when you can see again, you know?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Because you've been going by headlamp for so long, and typically by that point, your headlamp is kind of dying, you just don't see that well. And then the sun comes up, and you're like, "Thank God." And it's not cold anymore. You're just like, "The sun." So you get this breath of fresh air, and then you just keep grinding.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Have you ever had or do you have any kind of leanings towards those mystical experiences? Like, do you believe in any of that?

Alex Honnold: No, I've always been a fierce atheist.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Technically, I was raised Catholic, so I know religion a bit. And I've just never-- I've always been like, "You know, it just doesn't make any sense to me." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm strongly unreligious." Though I mean, I've been in so many beautiful places on Earth and had so many of what some would characterize as spiritual experiences, like feeling a oneness with nature, like a connection, or just awe-inspiring beauty when you're just somewhere, and you look out, and you're like, "Oh, the universe is so incredible. The world is a magical place." So I'm certainly open to general spiritualism, I suppose, or you know-- But, no, I'm very opposed to organized religion basically.

Andrew Huberman: Biology is awe-inspiring.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, well, that's the thing is, I think there's enough wonder in the world and in the universe without adding all the layers of dogma, basically.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Alex Honnold: Like, all the weird things that you don't really need to believe.

Andrew Huberman: I can't help but tell you this because I find it fascinating, and I think you might find it interesting. If not, then forgive me. Speaking of Berkeley, there was a laboratory at Berkeley that wanted to understand how geckos could walk up walls.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And for a long time, it was thought that it was, like, suction of some sort. But then turns out they could do it in a vacuum, so it means that it can't be suction.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: It turns out they have these little paddles on their little fingertips.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And they can push those pedals. They're organized sort of like feathers. They can push them so close to the surface that they're climbing that they use what are called van der Waal forces, which is the exchange of molecules between the surface and those pedals, and they're making and breaking those van der Waal forces as they climb.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Really is a Spider-Man.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: It's like magical sticking.

Andrew Huberman: And so as they climb, they're exchanging molecules with the surface they're climbing, which I find absolutely amazing. I realize that's not how you're climbing, but-

Alex Honnold: That's cool.

Alex Honnold: Hmm.

Alex Honnold: Well, I'm sweating all over the wall, so it's kind of the same idea, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: There you go. Right, right.

Alex Honnold: It's like, yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, and I'm leaving skin behind.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: You're like, "Oh, my tips."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: "It hurts." You know, so it's-

Andrew Huberman: Well, you may not feel a kinship to them, but I have a feeling they feel a kinship to you because they are world-class climbers. And I just find it amazing that they've evolved some way to literally exchange molecules. I mean, you spend a lot of time on the rock. I'm sure that you're carrying some granite in you by now.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. No, that's cool. I mean, you see a lot of creatures on walls like that, you know? You see little frogs wandering up and down. I mean, even something like El Capitan looks like a 3,000-foot solid cliff. There are rodents running up and down the cracks. There are frogs in there. There are all kinds of birds. There are bats.

Alex Honnold: It's like you see all these creatures roaming around, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, they're just living. They're just up here doing their thing." And climbing is so relatively hard for humans, and then you're up there, and it's just all part of the natural environment for all the other creatures.

Andrew Huberman: I didn't realize there were frogs up there. I've seen birds go by. I think there were a couple of clips in "Free Solo" where birds go by.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Yeah, they live in all the cracks, so often when you put your hands in, birds will run down your arm and fly out of the cracks and things like that. And you're like, "Whoa."

Andrew Huberman: Is it startling?

Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's startling.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Alex Honnold: Well, I mean, it's very startling the first time and then less startling the subsequent times. But you're always kind of like, "Oh, wow, a swift just ran down my arm."

Andrew Huberman: That's wild.

Alex Honnold: And I was like, "It's cool."

Andrew Huberman: Well, Alex, you've inspired and continue to inspire so many people, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "It's the effort involved." You know, I think that many people might think it's the summiting and standing on top of the rock, and those are moments that, thanks to you, we've been fortunate enough to share and experience, you know, indirectly.

Andrew Huberman: But clearly it's the effort involved, and I actually think that's why people are so intrigued by what you do, in addition to the fact that it's in beautiful places and incredibly high risk, high consequence. It's so clear that you're regimented and that you love what you do and that you put a ton of effort into it.

Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And the way you describe climbing with your friends, I think, is the best hook sales pitch for climbing ever. Like, hanging out with your friends, talking, and getting better and physically healthier, and it puts you in a place to go have bigger adventures and experience life more richly.

Andrew Huberman: Let's also get you back sometime after this next big feat. We can't talk too much about it, so...

Alex Honnold: I'm sure it'll be amazing.

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

Alex Honnold: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: All right. Well, we'll see you after that climb.

Alex Honnold: Cool. Thank you.

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Alex Honnold. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the Follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments on both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.

Andrew Huberman: If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests, or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments.

Andrew Huberman: For those of you who haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There, you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best.

Andrew Huberman: Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am HubermanLab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's HubermanLab on all social media platforms.

Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our "Neural Network Newsletter," the "Neural Network Newsletter" is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, and deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available at completely zero cost.

Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Alex Honnold. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.