How to Speak Clearly & With Confidence | Matt Abrahams

Andrew Huberman: Do you ever recommend people memorize speeches?

Matt Abrahams: Never. The reason memorizing is so bad is it burdens your cognitive load. You've created the right way to say it, and you're constantly comparing what you wanted to say to what you're actually saying. So having a roadmap, having a structure, having some familiarity with some ideas are important. If there are certain words that you really want to get across or certain data, have a note card, read it. I'd rather you do that than put the cognitive burden on yourself of memorizing.

Andrew Huberman: Several people asked about how best to communicate with people who are not very good at communicating.

Matt Abrahams: I would encourage people to lead with questions. Draw the other person out. Often, if you can get them talking about something that's important to them or connected to what you want, then you can engage in that conversation. So again, it's pre-work, it's thinking about what's of value. Lead with questions, and then as soon as the person responds, give them space to tell more.

Matt Abrahams: My mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk. She was amazing. She was from the Midwest. Every time she'd fly out to visit, she'd come off the plane with three new best friends, and her secret, and you mentioned this earlier, were three words: "Tell me more." Once somebody answers a question, give them that space to say more, and that really draws them out and gives you some ideas of what's important to them, so you can latch on and talk about it more. So lead with questions, give space for more communication. That's how you draw somebody who might be reticent or not comfortable speaking.

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Matt Abrahams from Stanford Graduate School of Business. Matt is an expert in speaking and communication on stage, online, in person, and in all circumstances.

Andrew Huberman: During today's episode, we discuss how to become a better communicator, everything from protocols that work to eliminate "ums," how to deal with on-stage fright, how to practice speaking more clearly, and equally important, how to remember important facts and synthesize information that you learn from others. Humans are extremely visual, and we are extremely verbal, and what we hear sticks with us, and how things are said matters tremendously, too.

Andrew Huberman: We all register people's levels of confidence or anxiety when they speak, and that determines what we remember and what we forget, and also what we remember and forget about them. During today's episode, Matt explains tools that have been proven to work, that you can practice alone, or that you can use in real time to improve your communication skills. He also explains what it really means to communicate authentically. We hear about authenticity all the time, but Matt makes clear exactly what that is, how to tap into it, and how to deliver information in your own unique voice.

Andrew Huberman: He also offers great tools for when things go wrong and how to recover from those situations with grace. Matt Abrahams is considered one of the foremost experts in communication, and I'm sure that everyone, women, men, young and old, will benefit from what he teaches today.

Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

Andrew Huberman: And now for my discussion with Matt Abrahams. Matt Abrahams, welcome.

Matt Abrahams: Thanks, Andrew. I'm thrilled to be here.

Andrew Huberman: Teach us how to communicate better, but please do it in the context of not just public speaking but one-on-one interactions, spontaneous interactions, as well as planned interactions.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Basically, I'm asking you to solve a number of problems that people have, but I think we often hear that one of the major fears people have is public speaking.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But I think it's highly contextual, right? Like, when we think public speaking, we think, being forced out on a stage to talk about a topic we don't know or something, but what do you think that fear of public speaking is really about? Is it the fear of being shamed, of saying something stupid, of dissolving into a puddle of our own tears on stage? What is it? Because in some sense, it's kind of illogical.

Matt Abrahams: Well, those of us who study this believe it actually has an evolutionary basis, that when our species was hanging around in groups of about 150 people, your relative status meant everything, and I'm not talking about who has the fancy car or who gets the most likes on social media. It's who got access to resources, food, shelter, reproduction, and if you did something that put your status at risk, that could be really bad news for you. So, those of us who study this believe it's ingrained in who we are to be very sensitive to anything that puts our status at risk, and that can be being up in front of a big crowd or talking to my boss about an important issue. All of those put us at risk.

Andrew Huberman: We often hear that what is being said is perhaps not as important as how it's being said.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: The timbre of one's voice, the eye contact, the body language, et cetera. Whenever I hear that, I often think, it's kind of a skewed perspective. It's got to be the sum total of it all, right?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what you say is really important. If it doesn't make sense, if it's not logical, if it's confusing, that puts you in a bad light. But similarly, how you say it, if you're confident, if you're upright, if you use a strong voice, that matters, too. So those of us who do what I do are really intent in helping people not only craft messages that are meaningful, but to deliver them in a way that can actually be connected, authentic, and engaging. Both are important.

Andrew Huberman: So, when I think about online communications and in-person communications, where somebody is on a stage, and they're selected to talk about something, and the expectation is that they're going to engage us.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I like to think of this concept that a friend told me about, you know, that the first thing we want to know as an audience member is, has this person earned the right to have my time? So, typically, people will talk about their titles and their experience, and so how much of the fear of public speaking do you think comes from people's kind of need to kind of explain or justify that they've earned the right to actually take your time and talk to you. Because you hear a lot of filling of credentials and things like that. Let me just sort of counter that with the possibility that came to me, which is that people don't want to hear that at all. They just want to hear what somebody has to say.

Matt Abrahams: Right, and I tend to agree with that. I coach my students, the folks I work with in the corporate world, that what's really important is connection. So, if you can show that you have some value to bring by getting people engaged with your topic and showing that there is relevance and salience for them, that's all that really matters. Your credibility, while it informs what you say, doesn't need to be the first thing you say. I'm on a personal mission to stop presentations and meetings from starting with people just giving their credentials, telling the titles of what they're saying. Get us hooked. I tell people it's like an action movie. How does every action movie you've ever seen start? With action. Do something that engages the audience.

Matt Abrahams: I'm not saying crash a car and jump out of a plane, but make a provocative statement, ask a question, give some interesting statistics, show what you're saying means for the people, and then you're enabled to engage them in a dialogue, and that's where connection happens. So credentialing is important, but it doesn't happen right away. You demonstrate your credibility.

Matt Abrahams: I teach my students that there are two types of credibility. There's your career and college credibility, something you'd see in your LinkedIn profile or your resume, and then what I call Costco Credibility. You know, when you go to Costco, they give you free samples? You try it, you like it. Show people through the questions you ask, through the engagement you have, through the relevance you bring, that's how you build credibility.

Andrew Huberman: I totally agree, and this raises the issue not only of credibility, but of authenticity. We hear so much about authenticity, authenticity, and I've been thinking a lot about that recently. What is this authenticity thing, in terms of people being able to tap into it, or maybe that runs counter to authenticity, like you're not supposed to tap into anything, you're supposed to just be you?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so I think it comes down to really understanding what's important to you and what you stand for, and coming from that place. So, what does that mean? That means when you're talking about anything, on a big stage or in a one-on-one interaction, understanding where the value is for you, and then articulating that in as clear a way as possible. So just be true to your beliefs, but you have to first understand and take the time to think about what those are. Many of us are nervous or so worried about getting through all our material, we don't focus on coming from a firm, clear, connected place. So, it really has to do with introspection first, and then you convert that into something that's meaningful for the audience. That's what I think authenticity is.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I feel like part of this authenticity thing that we're exploring also has to do with the person delivering the information, that they're doing it in a way where they are not constantly monitoring what the audience thinks of them. This seems to be central to effective communication, that monitoring for one's performance, and other people's perception of them trying to get a running score of how well they're doing, really runs counter to effective communication.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, 100%. The more we are in our heads judging and evaluating, the more difficult it is to be present and connected to somebody. I do this activity in my class on the first day that really shows how in our heads we can get. I borrowed this from improvisation. I have my students stand up, and for 15 seconds, they just point at different objects in the room, and the only rule is to call it something that it is not.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: So, you point at the ceiling, and you call it a car. You point at the floor, and you call it a calculator. And for 15 seconds, this is very challenging. I had a student once who's pointing at a chair. Nothing's coming out of his mouth, and I go up, I say, "What's going on?" He said, "I'm not being wrong enough." I gave no rubric, no requirements. I said, "Tell me more." He said, "Well, I was going to call the chair a cat, but a cat has four legs, and a chair has four legs. I'm not being wrong enough. Sometimes a cat sits on a chair. I'm not being wrong enough."

Matt Abrahams: We are all on this continuum he's on, judging and evaluating. He's clearly several standard deviations away from most of us, but we all carry around this judgment in our head, and what it does is it locks us internally and not allows us to be external. So, you're absolutely right. And when I'm focused on judging what I'm saying, I'm using precious cognitive bandwidth that I could be spending on making sure you clearly understand my message. This is why memorizing what you're trying to say works against you, because that precious cognitive bandwidth, trying to get it right, gets in the way of actually doing it. So, we need to train ourselves to understand that the magic of communication happens in the moment and not what's happening in your head before.

Andrew Huberman: What a great exercise. Do you recommend people do that on their own if they're trying to-

Matt Abrahams: As long as they're not driving. And you know who's really good at this?

Andrew Huberman: "That's not a red light, that's a green light."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.

Matt Abrahams: Children are fantastic at this because they don't have the inhibitions that we do.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: But anything that gets you to disrupt the judgment and evaluation that you do can be really helpful.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: So if just a simple game like that, other improv activities as well, it just gets you to see, here's what I'm doing, this is my pattern, my habit. It identifies the heuristics that we carry around that actually get in the way of our communication.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, that's so cool. I sometimes like to play the game that I played when I was a kid, where you look at clouds, and you try and see what they look like, and it's so much fun.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And it's a very childlike game.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But it forces you to see clouds differently, the contours become certain things.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And then, it's interesting. It almost always... If you do this with somebody else, it's kind of fun to do. It gives way to narration, where it looks like one cloud is eating another cloud.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You start creating this narrative. Right?

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: And, I did this recently with someone, and it was a lot of fun. And then at some point, you're like, "Wow, that really looks like..."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And then, you know, whatever it was that, that we happen to see.

Matt Abrahams: What I think enables that, and what allows you to have that fun, is that you're suspending judgment for a little bit, and you're just letting things flow freely.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And it is in doing that, that you begin to build a confidence in what happens in the moment. A lot of my work recently has been on spontaneous speaking, speaking in the moment, and you can actually prepare to be spontaneous. If you think of an athlete, they do a lot of drills, and a lot of repetitive motions, so when they're in the game, they can respond appropriately. You can do the same thing with your speaking, but part of it is that mindset you have to take. Get out of your own way, see what happens in the moment, and that frees you up to do what needs to be done when you're in that interaction.

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night, according to your unique needs.

Andrew Huberman: I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5. This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it. It has so many incredible features. For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $700 off the Pod 5 Ultra. This is Eight Sleep's biggest sale of the year. It goes from now until December 1st, 2025. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $700 now through December 1st, 2025.

Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years, and I've found it to be an extremely important component to my overall health. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First, it provides good rapport with somebody that you can trust and discuss issues with. Second of all, it provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.

Andrew Huberman: And third, expert therapy provides useful insights, insights that can allow you to make changes to and improve your life, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist that can help provide the benefits that come from effective therapy. Also, because BetterHelp is done entirely online, it's very time efficient. There's no driving to a therapist's office, looking for parking, et cetera. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

Andrew Huberman: When I do public lectures or when we do live events, sometimes do some crowd work, where I'll just cold call for...

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I usually ask for a body part, and I'm always afraid of what body parts will come up.

Matt Abrahams: That's a brave cold call.

Andrew Huberman: And then I try and weave it to some real neuroscience or health-related fact.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And it's always a lot of fun, but I do it as a way to break up the cadence.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Uh-huh.

Andrew Huberman: Sometimes I think the difficulty in public speaking comes from the fact that as we go out there, we've done some preparation.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Maybe, we've memorized it. I typically don't. But we have some sense of what we're going to say, beginning, middle, end, et cetera.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: What's on the slides, but that the cadence can become so regular that we lose people.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And breaking up that cadence can be helpful, I think. And when I step back from public speaking experiences, both as the speaker, but also as an audience member, I feel like there's a almost a song-like nature to a talk, where it has an opener, and then it has a quicker pace, and then it repeats itself, and it's got some melodies and rhythms.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And I like to think that really effective podcasting, not to make ourselves conscious of what we're doing here, has some of the same.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I want to tell you a story that relates to that, but at some point, I'm going to shout out the word "earlobe," and I want to hear how you respond to that, because I'm amazed that you get up and ask people to call out body parts. I did some work, when I was researching my recent book, where I interviewed the gentleman who's in charge of all LEGO manuals. I don't know if you've ever built LEGO or not, but-

Andrew Huberman: When I was a kid, yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. Their manuals have no words, and I've always been fascinated by it.

Andrew Huberman: Love them.

Matt Abrahams: In my class, I will do a lesson where I will bring in a LEGO manual and an IKEA manual, which is, they're antithetical, and I have my students just discuss communication using these as two representations of ways to get information across. The gentleman who runs that group shared with me that LEGO manual designers see the manual as a story, as a narrative. All you're doing is putting pieces together.

Matt Abrahams: But what they found is, if you put all the same steps in the same order, you could... Each step could be the same number of moves with the same number of pieces. People have a very different experience than if you give some moves that have a lot of hard, detailed work, some that are simpler, some that are faster. So that rhythm you're talking about builds that motivation, builds that sense of accomplishment. They're looking to bring emotion into the act of building Lego models.

Andrew Huberman: Wow!

Matt Abrahams: Isn't that interesting? And that just emphasizes what you were talking about.

Andrew Huberman: Is it the Scandinavians that-

Matt Abrahams: It's out of Denmark, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay. My stepmom will be very pleased that we're talking about Lego.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: She's Danish.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, isn't that fascinating? And if you can do it with a manual that has no words, that just has you putting bricks together, think about what you could do in your communication, one-on-one or one-to-many. What you're talking about, the rhythm, the patterns, the pattern disruption, all of that can lead to that engagement.

Andrew Huberman: I think about the way that we learn things as kids, like, the ABCs.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Not just a string of letters, but it has prosody, right? There's inflections, and A, B, C, D.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, right.

Andrew Huberman: Everyone knows that, right?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: As opposed to just A, B, C, D.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Kids don't learn that way.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and putting things to music, putting things visually, are lots of ways to help you remember.

Andrew Huberman: These days, we hear a lot about the fact that people want short-form content.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: And yet people, I can attest, listen to long-form podcasts and are still doing that.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, I have a theory that's not based on any data that I've seen, that people need a lot of updating of visual information nowadays. You know, they're scrolling Instagram, they're scrolling TikTok, they're updating, "Ah, I don't like this YouTube video," switching to another one very fast.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But with audio, long-form, continuous presence of the same voices or voice works. It's very soothing, and we get into a groove with that. And I actually played this game. I decided to just listen to the audio coming through on Instagram Reels, and just flipped them.

Matt Abrahams: Huh.

Andrew Huberman: And by the fifth one, it was incredibly jarring.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's really disruptive. It's like, who are these voices, now these voices? But the visuals are very easy to track.

Matt Abrahams: Interesting. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And so, I think that it's correct that we can really update, and we like the novelty of new visual information, but that audio content needs to spool out over long periods of time, or else it actually is quite aversive to us.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I heard somebody once say that the difference of all the senses, our auditory sense requires us to slow down more than anything else to actually pay attention, and I think there's something about that slowing down that makes us more engaged with audio. And I think you're right. I mean, when my teaching has... I'm curious if your teaching has had to change. As I teach younger generations of students, I have to change things up so much more frequently. Somebody who took my class 15 years ago would be, "Oh, my goodness, what are you doing?" But in a two-hour class, I change things up, like, seven times. So, we go from a mini lecture to watching a video, to partnering with somebody, just to keep the students engaged because that's where they're at. They need that switching to help engage.

Andrew Huberman: Well, I teach medical students neural development and a few other things and I use slides heavily there.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But what I've realized over the years is that if there's too much information on a slide, they're not going to hear anything I say.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And that if you switch a slide, people, as somebody who studied vision, this makes perfect sense.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: People will orient towards the new visual information, and they won't hear what you're saying in the transition.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: The other thing that I'm really obsessed by, because I got my start teaching online on Instagram by doing drawings of different aspects of the nervous system and talking about them, is that there's this sweet spot when you're going to teach something with a visual, I've realized.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: That, for instance, if I were to draw an area of the brain or a brain circuit accurately with a lot of detailed information, it's too much.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: There's less learning in that case, as opposed to sparser representation of the key elements. But if I go to ball and stick model and just triangles and circles, it doesn't work as well.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, there's this sweet spot where there's just enough detail, but not too much, where people can hear what you're saying, see the labels, see the stuff, and it gets imprinted in their brain.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: And when you look back historically, I'm obsessed with the history of medicine and the history of teaching medicine.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: When you look at the diagrams that have really propagated through time in the field of medicine, they're extremely sparse.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: They accurately represent just a few elements of, say, the immune system, and they're not the little bubble diagrams, like, "I'm a macrophage," "I'm a glial cell." Like, uh-uh.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Like, those little cartoons don't work, at least in the long run, nor does showing all the detail that's there.

Matt Abrahams: Right, right.

Andrew Huberman: And you're just like, whoa, that's just like drinking from a fire hose.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And so, the really good teachers and anatomists were able to just give the appropriate dose of information and not any more. Kind of like a great chef would just have, like, not over-spice something, and it's not easy.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: No.

Andrew Huberman: And you sort of have to be the teacher and the student at the same time to be able to do this.

Matt Abrahams: Well, I think you're hitting on what's an essential element of any effective communication, which is really understanding your audience and their needs.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: You know, so many of us define success in communication as just getting the information out. "I'm successful because what I had in mind is now out."

Andrew Huberman: I've made that mistake many times.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, right. It's more about what do I need to say so that my audience understands it better? It's not about what I want, it's about what you need. So I have to do reconnaissance, reflection, and research to really think about how best to craft my message, be it a drawing or an important point I'm trying to make through my words. You really have to think about your audience, and most people don't. Most people are just so worried about getting the content out, they don't think about how it lands.

Matt Abrahams: Success is if your audience takes what you've said, and they're able to do something with it and understand it. You know, the F word of all communication is fidelity. It's about accuracy and clarity of transmitting ideas, and if you're not in sync with what your audience needs, then you're in trouble. Most of us create one message and just deliver it to multiple audiences, and think we've been successful because we got it out. That's the wrong way to think about it.

Andrew Huberman: So, if you're willing, could we just take a couple of minutes and explore some of the tools and practices and then go back to some of the theory, and then back to the tools and practices?

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman: I love this exercise you said of, like, I'll point to the mug, and I'll just try not to judge myself, and I'll say bulldog, because that just is kind of like where, you know...

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, [unintelligible].

Andrew Huberman: I'm like Bart Simpson doing the Rorschach test. Butterfinger, Butterfinger. Like, bulldog, bulldog, bulldog. But what is that exercise good for, and when could and should somebody apply it on their own or with other people?

Matt Abrahams: That's an exercise that I use for two reasons. I use it to show that we have a tremendous amount of judgment that we make when we communicate. Because if you ask somebody, "Why is it so hard to call something something it's not?" They'll say, "Well, that's not what I'm used to," or, "I want it to be better than something else I was thinking." The other thing that I use it for is to help elucidate how we heuristically think in these challenging situations.

Matt Abrahams: So invariably, when I do this in my class, I'll say, "Were you using any tools to help you figure out what to say?" And people say, "Yeah, I went in the category of colors," or in your case, the category of species of dog. These are heuristics. Our brain is trying to help us, and heuristics are very important. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't be able to make decisions. But sometimes a heuristic locks you into a way of thinking.

Matt Abrahams: So, let's imagine you and I come out of a meeting, and you turn to me, and you say, "Hey, Matt, how do you think that meeting went?" I immediately say, "Andrew wants feedback," and I can itemize all the things that went wrong or all the things we could have done better. But had I been really listening, not locked into that heuristic of feedback, I might have noticed that you were looking down. You were speaking more slowly and softly than usual.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: Maybe what you wanted in that moment was not feedback, but what you wanted was support because you knew the meeting went bad. So, if I lock into a heuristic too soon and not understand that I locked into that heuristic, I might take our communication in a direction that isn't productive or could be harmful. The situation I just described to you actually happened to me with a colleague, and I itemized all the things that we did wrong. It took me six months to repair that relationship because he didn't want to hear what went wrong. He knew. He wanted me to give some support in that moment. So, that exercise is to help us understand that we do a lot of judging that we don't need to do, and that we have these heuristics or patterns that we get into that don't allow us to be present and respond to what's needed.

Andrew Huberman: Could you define heuristic? I believe I know what it means.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so...

Andrew Huberman: So it sounds like... You mentioned heuristic and pattern as kind of synonymous, but maybe just define it for people.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: So to me, a heuristic is a tool that we use, often unconsciously, to help us reduce the uncertainty in a particular situation. So, for example, imagine I'm in the grocery store, and I'm trying to pick out the best tomato sauce or the best ketchup. I might use a heuristic of which is the cheapest. How many offerings from one brand are there? That must be the best brand to buy. So, these are mental shortcuts that we use to help us in uncertain situations.

Andrew Huberman: I'm recalling a story where, when I was a junior professor, meaning before I had tenure, my first graduate student, who's now a phenomenal professor in her own lab at the University of Utah, excuse me, we were in my office. And we were talking about something related to her first manuscript. And I went on this long description of what we would need to do with the analysis, and this and that, and she sat very quietly, and then she said to me, "Could you be more specific?" And I thought, "Oh, my goodness, I just spoke for five minutes," and I think what she's asking is, "What in the world are you saying?"

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Which is probably what she was asking. She's probably going to chuckle when she hears this.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And she had this amazing way of asking questions like that.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: She would say, for instance, "Tell me more."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Or "What exactly do you want me to do for these experiments in the next couple of weeks?"

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And then she'd usually tell me a better idea, as all great graduate students do. But I feel like that's a bit of this.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: It's that I was coming to it from the perspective of, kind of a fluency of this sort of expectation that we both were on the same page, and we weren't.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Not because I was the professor and she was the student. Actually, she was closer to the data than I was because she collected the data.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But that's the sort of interaction that one-on-one you can catch, and you can course-correct.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But in public speaking, oftentimes people just get off stage, and they either realize it went poorly or they get feedback that it went poorly. My postdoc advisor once said, "If you get questions after a talk, it means you did well."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Huberman: "If you don't, it means they just want to get rid of you and have you go off stage."

Matt Abrahams: Right, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So now, when I get questions after a talk, I'm like, "Okay, excellent." Like, that means you engaged people.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: They have questions.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, take note of that. If people have questions, it's very likely you bull's-eyed it.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and you're highlighting that if we get into our heads, we're not able to assess what's going on in the moment. A lot of communication is responding, and so I need to be present enough to see how my audience is responding. Are they looking confused? Do they look upset? Then I can adjust and adapt. So, we have to be in that moment enough to be present, so we can respond, and the preparation work we do in advance helps us be better prepared.

Matt Abrahams: Now, I would argue that in the example you just gave with your former graduate student, part of the issue that I think she might have been having is when you relayed the information, it was just a list or litany of things, and our brains aren't very good at remembering lists. I mean, I always will joke with my students, "When you go to the grocery store, how many items do you need to buy before you have to write something down?" For me, it's three. I just can't remember much in lists.

Matt Abrahams: If you provide a structure to the information, it makes it much easier. It increases processing ability. So, a structure is nothing more than a logical connection of ideas. Everybody listening has seen structure. If you've ever watched a television ad, most ads are in the structure of problem, solution, benefit. There's some issue or challenge in the world, the product or service makes it better, and you benefit in some way. That's a structure. There's a logical connection. It's like a story. It's a beginning, middle, and an end, and our brains are wired for that. We understand story better than just a random list of things. I'll joke with my students, bullets kill, don't put a lot of bullet points on a slide because you're not helping yourself.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: So, in that interaction you had with your graduate student, I wonder if she would've understood it better had you structured the information in a way that's logical. A great structure for that might have been three questions: What? So what? Now what?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Here's what I want you to do, here's why it's important, here's the next steps to help you accomplish it. All of a sudden, it becomes easier for me to digest and understand. So, structure is critical to helping get messages across.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, across those first five years of having my lab, I learned that the best way to interact with students in post-docs, the most effective way, was to have them stand at the whiteboard in my office and write things down as we talked about a project.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And the things they would write down, we would eventually cross some things out, maybe make some edits, but those were the, as we call the do outs, that they were going to take to the next phase of experiments.

Matt Abrahams: Uh-huh.

Andrew Huberman: By putting them in control of what the critical information was, they could also stop me and say, "What would happen here?"

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: So, that's a very dynamic interaction. It's not a typical lecture-type interaction, but I've found that that works really well in other types of situations, too.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Where the person can take notes, can ask questions about things that were unclear, but where I get a strong sense of what their takeaway was and also where I fell short or perhaps, in rare cases, succeeded in communicating what I was trying to communicate.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, right.

Matt Abrahams: Right. I love that you are taking the time to have those interactions, where you get feedback in real time, and there are things you can build into more formal or bigger types of communication situations. I can take polls. I can have people partner or pair with each other and share some information back. There are virtual tools that allow you to do lots of things. People can give you reactions as you're communicating. There are ways to get feedback in real time that allow you to adjust and adapt. But one, you have to build in those opportunities in the structure, and two, you have to be present enough to pay attention to what's going on.

Andrew Huberman: Do you recommend people tape themselves giving lectures and then review those videos?

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. I make all of my students, as part of the work that they do, they have... Anytime they do a public presentation, it could be a panel simulation, a meeting simulation, a speech, they digitally record themselves, and they have to watch it three times: once with sound only, no video; once with video only, no sound; and then once both together. And anybody who does this will notice different things, both positive and negative. I tell everybody, "It's like going to the dentist. Nobody likes going, but everybody's really glad they've been," because you see so much, and you learn, and I know many great communication teachers. The best teacher is watching yourself communicate. I assume you've watched yourself. Have you learned things when you watch what you see?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, yeah, I will listen to podcasts with guests, and I do listen to solos to try and see where I can improve.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I have one or two people who I seek feedback from and I have always done my best to implement that feedback.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, I'm not going to share what some of the things were because some of it was subtle, and I never would've observed in myself, and then turned out to be very useful.

Matt Abrahams: Sure. No.

Andrew Huberman: When I think of effective communication on stage or in a podcast or in any form really, I feel like it's really about getting outside the self-judgment.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And at the same time, you have to be connected to your audience. I mean, and this is especially difficult on podcasts, where it's a solo podcast, I'm talking to a camera, but I just imagine it's an audience, like a classroom.

Matt Abrahams: That's right.

Andrew Huberman: And yet hands aren't going up, at least not then. They go up when we post it, and you see the comments and critiques from time to time as well. And those are very useful. I mean, coming from the landscape of teaching in the classroom, large lectures, small lectures, and doing peer-reviewed science, you get a very thick skin.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: And yet nothing quite prepares you for being public-facing.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And now, everybody's public-facing unless they block their comments section.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, everybody out there, the mom posting the cake she made for her kids, and the kid posting the birthday party photo, that everybody's public-facing now.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And so I think it gives people a thicker skin, but I think for a lot of people, it can be damaging for them.

Matt Abrahams: I like, though, that you are taking the time to reflect and seek feedback. I often say the only way you get better at communication is three things: repetition, reflection, and feedback. You've got to practice. Nobody has ever thought their way to better communication.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: You have to do it. You have to reflect. You know that definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results? That's how many people communicate.

Matt Abrahams: Every night before I go to bed, I spend one minute writing down what went well and what didn't go well in my communication that day, and every Sunday, I spend five minutes going back over the previous week, and I make a plan for the following week. I'm not saying I'm a great communicator, but I certainly believe I'm a better communicator because I've been doing that practice for years.

Andrew Huberman: You do that every week? Every day, every day-

Matt Abrahams: Every day, every day. I have a journal. I write down one or two things that I thought went well, and one or two things I thought didn't go well, and then I pick one on a Sunday, I review them, and it has helped me. And then the final step in that is feedback. You have to have trusted others who can give you honest feedback. But yeah, that reflection practice I've been doing for a long time.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: How long?

Matt Abrahams: Probably... I think it was after my kids were, so probably at least 15, 16 years.

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Well, this is why you're a Stanford professor. This is one of the great pleasures of being at Stanford. I mean, we're not at Stanford at this moment.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. Right.

Andrew Huberman: But I have to say, I mean, there are other great universities on the planet, but I love it because everybody who's on the faculty there, and the students, I mean, the students are really the phenoms of the place, let's be honest.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, oh-

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Is so committed to their craft.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Also true elsewhere, but since Stanford's the experience I know, it's just so awesome. You teach communication, and you're taking notes on your own communication every day and reviewing at the end of the week.

Matt Abrahams: Correct.

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic. Yeah, I think feedback is great. I think that being a selective filter for feedback is great.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Andrew Huberman: I do like to listen to other lectures. I listen to a lot of lectures that perhaps other people would find boring based on content or delivery.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I learn a lot from people's styles.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You know, it's also interesting to pull from the communication styles of people in really distant genres. I won't mention some of these, but if you look at different fields of entertainment and communication, some people use more physicality.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Some people are more rigid. I think there's a lot to be learned from exploring these other landscapes.

Matt Abrahams: I 100% agree. I'm very fortunate that the podcast I host, I get to interview some of the world's best communicators, and it is such a treat to not only engage them in thinking through their craft, but seeing them do it and observe the different ways people do things. And it doesn't have to be somebody who's famous or has a whole bunch of notoriety.

Matt Abrahams: One of my son's kindergarten teachers taught me so much about how to stay calm under pressure, how to monitor and manage and facilitate interaction. We just have to pay attention to it and be open to it, not so that we copy, but so that we get ideas and we see how people do things. The way you break down complex biological processes, I find amazing in terms of the accessibility that you bring to it.

Matt Abrahams: That's a skill that somebody who is programming, some programmer somewhere, could use to explain to their end users how this works. We need to borrow and understand what people do. We get caught up in our own way of doing it, and watching others, I think, is the best way to do it.

Andrew Huberman: Long ago, I realized that when there's a certain amount of energy in the body, what we call autonomic arousal or sympathetic tone or whatever, people say fight or flight. But when there's a lot of energy in the body, which is often the case when we're going to give a talk or we're in a novel situation, it doesn't have to be on stage, that allowing oneself to physically move, to walk, to pace, to gesticulate, helps dispel some of that energy and makes it a lot easier to deliver the information than we're to just sit really still and try and funnel all that through one's mouth.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Right? When we're calm and relaxed, we can sit back and just move our mouth and our eyes a little bit and our head a little bit.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So I've seen that some of the best public speakers know when to pace, know when to stand rigid, and it may be rehearsed, I don't know, but they're not running against their natural tendency in those moments. Like, there's this one neuroscientist, he's actually been a guest on this podcast before.

Andrew Huberman: I won't embarrass him by saying who it is, and he has so much mental vigor and energy, and the first time I saw him give a talk was actually at Harvard Medical School for the 50th anniversary of a foundation. And he got up there, and he grabbed the microphone, and he gave the talk like this. And I thought to myself, "He's going to eat the microphone. He's going to eat the microphone." And he gave the most spectacular talk, and he was funneling all his energy into that microphone.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And I realized, this guy isn't moving at all, but I thought it was totally reasonable that at some point, he was just going to take a huge chunk out of the thing. And of course, he didn't. I thought, "Wow, he brought us all to that one location."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Now, clearly, he's a very experienced and skilled communicator.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But he's also an expert in that topic. And this is the thing that I always would remind my students and postdocs who had some understandable stage fright.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: There's no way that you aren't among at least the top three people in the room in terms of the knowledge of what you're talking about.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Right? Like, probably have the most knowledge, but maybe someone else is an expert there, which can be a little scary.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: But at least you're then sort of their peer. So to remind oneself that in most situations where we're public speaking, you're among the top experts in that. You've spent the most time with the material, at least compared to the audience.

Matt Abrahams: Well, and I would add to that often when we're in those situations, the audience actually wants to learn from us. They're there because they want to take value from us.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: They're not there to critique and judge and evaluate, although that can happen. People don't like watching people fail and flail. We want to get some value, and if you remind yourself that "I have value to bring," and the audience wants that value, that can reduce some of the temperature of that. With regard to movement, I think movement is great. You just don't want it to be distracting.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: So there's some rules or ideas around movement. So move when appropriate during transitions. You know, stand-up comedians have a rule that they try to follow, is you never want to walk during the punchline. You want to land the punchline. All of us, when we communicate, have punchlines. We have things that really, we want to have land. Stand still during that, but as you're doing the setup, move side to side. When you start, come in and move forward.

Matt Abrahams: So movement can help you with that anxiety, but it also can help your audience understand what's important and what's not important. So if I'm transitioning from one point to the next, and I physically move or I turn my body at the table if I'm seated, that signals information to you that's helpful for you to know we're moving from one place to the next. So use this need to move in a purposeful way.

Andrew Huberman: I didn't realize that comedians don't deliver the punchline while moving, but now that makes perfect sense.

Matt Abrahams: Right, because you're distracting your audience. Even Chris Rock, who moves a lot, will sometimes stop during the punchline.

Andrew Huberman: We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root. These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.

Andrew Huberman: I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed. Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula. It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix. This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.

Andrew Huberman: AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market. I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious, by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep. I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep. I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep. AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors, and as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.

Andrew Huberman: My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all. If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer. Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.

Andrew Huberman: Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improved vision itself.

Andrew Huberman: What sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole-body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. Right now, Joovv is having their biggest sale of the year.

Andrew Huberman: From now through December 1st, 2025, you can save up to $1,000 on select Joovv devices during their Black Friday sale. Just go to joovv.com/huberman. That's J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman. Some exclusions apply.

Andrew Huberman: I wonder if you've observed in the classroom that social media and other newer forms of content are changing people's expectations of how engaging something should be, because the on-ramp to social media is a very fast one.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I've never observed anything that brings people to focus so quickly unless it's seeing something really disturbing, which nobody wants to see.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But if you suddenly see two cars crash, you're completely focused on that.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You're not going to go back to what you were doing.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But setting aside bad events, traumatic events, social media has an incredibly smooth and fast on-ramp to a focal point, which has got you in the box.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: A book doesn't typically do that for people.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: So what's happening now in terms of what you observe with the audience's expectation of how engaging something needs to be?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so I see this play out in a couple ways. One, when you think about a multigenerational workforce or a place where multi-generations are together, people of our vintage, although I'm older than you are, expect relationships and communication to unfold in a certain way. And I think younger generations expect things to be quicker and more transactional. And when we come together, that can breed misunderstanding and sometimes conflict.

Matt Abrahams: So I see it play out there, and I find it really interesting, and I try to coach the students I have that they have to be appreciative of the ways in which people connect and the ways in which people expect information to come in. You know, if you're just going to keep texting me things, and I actually want you to pick up the phone so I can hear it in your own voice, that's going to cause some issues. So we have to appreciate that others have different ways of taking in information.

Matt Abrahams: I find that many of the younger students that I communicate with, it's hard for them to do some of the initial work that we have to do in relationship building, trust building just because they expect things and are used to things happening really fast. And a lot of communication, a lot of connection, at least at first, takes time.

Matt Abrahams: So it's helping people appreciate that the time spent up front can lead to the exciting and in-depth connection that comes later. So it is changing for sure.

Andrew Huberman: I was trying to think before our conversation, what would be the one piece of advice to give people so that they are more at ease with communicating in novel environments, on stage or off stage? And what popped to mind for me was to be friendly with people.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I'm naturally pretty friendly.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Like, if I'm getting a coffee, I'll be like, "How's your day going?"

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Or like, I will ask that, and I'm genuinely curious, "How's your day going?"

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Now, it's rare that somebody says like, "Today sucks." Occasionally, they do.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Usually they say, "Oh, it's pretty good."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Like, "How are you doing?" But in an Uber, for instance, I often find myself in conversation with people.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Like, conversation is pretty fluid for me. I realize for other people it's not.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: People won't believe this, but I'm actually very introverted. I spend a lot of time by myself, but I like people, and I'm reasonably friendly, and they're friendly with me.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: So, I think being friendly helps you get good at communication.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Wouldn't you say?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, my answer to that question would be curiosity.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: Lead with curiosity, ask questions, observe things, point them out.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: You know, a lot of people hate small talk because they don't know how to do it. But if you lead with curiosity, if you ask a question and you observe, that's where I think we can make it move forward in a way that's more fluid and more comfortable for people.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And quite frankly, people are most at ease talking about themselves. And so if you can get people talking about something that's important to them.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And then there's a whole science behind conversation, and people who study conversation look at turn-taking. Because if you think about it, conversation is just taking turns. There are turns that are supportive, where you say something, and I support what you say. So you might say, "Hey, Matt, I just got back from Maui." And I could say, "Oh, that's great. Where'd you stay? What did you do?" Or I could say, which is the other type of turn, which is switching, I could say, "Oh, I just got back from Costa Rica." And a good conversation does both.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: So being curious and then managing the switching and supporting turns allow for that conversation not only to develop, but it allows you to get closer and more intimate, if you will, closer in terms of trust-building and the relationship you have.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, almost always in Los Angeles, I ask my Uber driver where they're from because oftentimes it seems they have accents and I can't place the accent.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And almost always, I learn about a great restaurant based on their ethnicity, right?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I found what I think is the best Armenian restaurant in Los Angeles as a consequence of a great Uber ride.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So yeah, leading with curiosity. I don't say, "Where's the best restaurant?"

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I think it inevitably leads to food, it seems. Dogs or food.

Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about linearity versus non-linearities in storytelling.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You know, some people have a style where they can spin a lot of plates simultaneously, as I imagine it.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You know, they can start one thread, maybe open up a couple other threads. Some people have a very linear style. Some people won't reference things they said earlier. Some people will constantly reference things they said earlier. I suppose it depends, but in general, if one is trying to communicate information, what's best from the standpoint of people learning the information?

Matt Abrahams: So as a teacher, as somebody who's trying to convey information that's important to people, I believe a linear approach that clearly lays out the foundations and builds is probably best to help people really understand. Often in educating, you're layering, you're scaffolding, and that leads to a linear approach.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: That said, the more spurious approach, the approach that has lots of different avenues, can be much more engaging and can also be successful. And it really doesn't have to be either/or. I think you can have a high-level linear view, that you're taking your audience on that journey, but at different points, you can branch off and share some interesting information.

Matt Abrahams: You know, I see being a good speaker as like being a good tour guide, and I actually was a tour guide at one point in my life. A good tour guide does a really nice job of setting expectations of where you're going. Most people won't go on a tour if they don't know where they're going. If I showed up and said, "I'm your tour guide, let's go," you might say, "Eh, I don't know where we're going." But if I say, "Hey, we're going to do this and this, and we're not going to do that," then you can relax and feel comfortable and come with me. And I let you know at each point where we're moving to the next place.

Matt Abrahams: But along the way, we can meander, we can wander, we can go check out some things and come back. So as long as people have directionality and everything fits as a larger narrative, I think you can play with either of these. But when it comes to strict education, I think we've got good evidence that a linear approach that scaffolds is really what's most helpful.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think that if people want to get better at communication, they should practice being a tour guide?

Matt Abrahams: I think adopting that mindset that, "Hey, taking you through my material, I'm like a tour guide." How would a tour guide explain this? They would introduce at the beginning, set expectations. They'd make sure that you understand why we're moving from one place to the next. And when you're done, they really want you to take something away of value. I mean, most tours end up in the gift shop, right? Your gift to your audience is something they can take away and do something with. So I think using that analogy, seeing what your job is through that lens, can be really helpful.

Andrew Huberman: I'm remembering back to grade school, where we were asked to bring an object that was really important to us, and then kids would get up in front of the classroom.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And of course, what a beautiful exercise for kids to partake in, because of course, they know more about that object than anybody.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But I remember seeing or hearing different styles.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Some people would get in there and be like, "This is mine," or whatever.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: "My transformer," and they're really out there with it, or "This is my goldfish." I saw a goldfish. And then occasionally-- not so occasionally, you get this kid that would say, "Well, this is my pen," and then you're like, "Speak up."

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And they're just not comfortable sharing their clearly intimate knowledge about this object and why it's important.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, you can just tell, they're closed up.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And so you tell them to speak louder, and then they'd speak louder. But I think that's a lot of people.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Like, they're just not comfortable projecting their thoughts out into the room.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: What is the, quote-unquote, "solution," or how do we make space for these people? I'm not saying this for politically correct reasons, but I wholeheartedly believe that these people harbor tons of useful knowledge.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew Huberman: Maybe they want to get that knowledge out, but maybe that's just not the medium for them.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Maybe they write, or maybe they just don't want to share their favorite object.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So I'm sure you encounter people like this.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew Huberman: But by virtue of the fact that they're going into a particular job or line of work, they're told they have to get good at speaking to a whole room.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and I think that's unfortunate when people say, "You must be better at this." There are lots of ways to communicate, and everybody should find a vehicle in a way that's helpful for them. There are some roles that require certain types of communication, and if that isn't something you're comfortable with, maybe you look at a different role. But I believe we can all learn and develop our communication skills.

Matt Abrahams: I've spent much of my career helping people feel more comfortable and confident speaking in front of others, working on anxiety that goes around it, helping people to see that there are lots of ways to communicate. Maybe I don't have to hold this object up and make it about me and my object. Maybe I tell a story about the object, or I tell a story about how I came to have the object. So it's less about me, and it's more about the story.

Matt Abrahams: If we can get people to distance themselves sometimes from the fear itself and get others engaged, it can work really well. I coached a very senior leader at a very big company everybody's familiar with, and he was really, really nervous, and as he got promoted, he had larger and larger audiences. And what he would do, what we worked on doing, in essence, distracting the audience right at the beginning. He would start by saying, "Let's watch this 30-second video."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And then when the video was over, he became a facilitator of what just happened. "So what did you think? What does this mean?" And he was much more comfortable facilitating interaction than actually being the center of attention. So there are a lot of things we can do that accomplish the goal of communicating the information, that's not about the spotlight being on me communicating it. And I want to share one example of, or take the story about, the kids doing show-and-tell. I used to do that in my undergraduate classes that I taught, but I had a wrinkle on it.

Matt Abrahams: I'd have people bring in an object, and they'd have to share it. I had them use that what, so what, now what structure. And then, I had them tell about an object that they thought about bringing in, but they didn't. So then they had to say what that object was and why they chose not to bring it in, and that was far more illuminating about the person. And we talk about authenticity.

Matt Abrahams: People just emoted in a way that they didn't when they had this thing that, "I've made sure to think about this, and it's going to make me look good, and I've architected my conversation about this one object." But when they talked about the other object, their passion came out, their conversational nature came out. It was really illuminating to do that.

Andrew Huberman: My graduate advisor told me that she'd much rather give a talk to an entire room full of people or an empty room than to one person.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's hard to do it for one person.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I think she's unique in that sense. I think most people are terrified of giving a talk to a room full of people. I still don't know why, but that's not because it's easy for me.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I just, I wonder what it is. I mean, you said there's this evolutionary basis for it.

Matt Abrahams: I think it's that. I think the consequences seem more real when you're in front of more people. For me, personally, the group size that's most anxiety-provoking is between 10 or 12. Once you get above 12, 20, or 100,000 people, it becomes, to me, more anonymous.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: But it's that 10 to 12 range that's most difficult. So, in terms of how you can best practice, vocalizing it is the most important part.

Andrew Huberman: Say it out loud.

Matt Abrahams: Say it out loud. You know, I'm amazingly eloquent in my mind. I'm not always as lucky when I open up my mouth, so you have to actually say it out loud. We make so many assumptions in our minds and connect dots that when we actually speak it, we realize they don't do that. Recording yourself, obviously, and listening, getting trusted others, you just have to get it out. And this isn't just for big public speaking. I mean, this is high-stakes interpersonal communication. Maybe I want to ask my boss for a raise.

Matt Abrahams: Maybe I have to give some feedback to a colleague that's not great. I have to practice this stuff, and I have to think about not only what I am going to say, but I also have to anticipate the responses and maybe role-play some of that as well. You know, athletes do lots of drills, so when they're in the game, they can play it well. We need to do the same thing.

Matt Abrahams: It amazes me when I work with senior leaders of companies, and they'll say, "Oh, I practiced the presentation once or twice, and I'm ready to go." And I think about a stand-up comedian, how many times they practice their routine over and over again. How can in just one or two times flipping through the slides you have that content? So getting it out, practicing it, getting the reps, absolutely important. One person, 10 people, nobody, it needs to be practiced.

Andrew Huberman: We do think we know how to say something until reality hits us square in the face.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's almost like if we read a word many, many times, and we think we know how to pronounce it.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And then at some point, we're required to pronounce it, or we pronounce it incorrectly. And then we realize we've been essentially pronouncing it in our head incorrectly for a very, very long time.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: You and I talked prior, and I shared with you I've done martial arts for a long time. And when you learn a new move, you learn it in the air, and you can become really great... You can do that move really well, but then when you meet another person and have to practice that move, that's where reality sets in, and that's exactly what you're talking about. You have to experience it in reality, in the real world, and then you see where you're really at.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. I'm not a martial artist, but years ago, I spent a little time in a boxing gym, and I can tell you, shadow boxing is not the same as getting hit.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And the heavy bag doesn't hit back. I mean, it has some physical weight to it that's different than shadowboxing, but it's a whole other experience.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Exactly.

Andrew Huberman: Like anything.

Matt Abrahams: It's that feedback.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've been really intrigued by the famous choreographer, Twyla Tharp.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: She's now in her 80s.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: She's incredible and has said and written incredible things about choreography. And she said that she has this practice where she'll sort of develop a dance routine, then go through it in her head, then because she was a dancer, she can try it. And then she has people do it, and then imagine it, and then they iterate thousands and thousands and thousands of times before they actually even perform it once in front of a small audience, and not publicly.

Andrew Huberman: So it's an incredible thing that we would expect ourselves to be able to get up and communicate information really well without having done that.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: One new world that I think is really interesting with regard to this rehearsal is there's some VR tools now that you can actually don and practice the presentation, and you can see a simulated audience. And with some of these tools, you can actually program the audience's responses. You can say they're favorable or they're ignoring you, so you can desensitize yourself, and I think that's a really interesting vehicle for people, especially people who are phobic, to desensitize, to get in the goggles and practice the presentation.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And some of them you can actually, if you have slides, you can upload the slides, and you can practice referring to them. So I think it's not only in reality, but in virtual reality, we can practice and prepare, too.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think that if somebody wants to get more fluid at presenting information, that they could find a friend who would select an object in the room for them at random, and then they'd have to give a brief improv talk about it or something like that? Just to get comfortable taking on topics with some level of fluidity.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think improvisation is a wonderful way to get better at communicating, because improv isn't about being funny. Improv is about being in the moment and responding to what's needed. And so yeah, doing anything like that. You don't even need a friend. You can just look at an object and start talking about it. Describe it. Share a story about it. All of that could be useful. You could flip open a book and pick a word, and then just talk about what that word means. Those are some of those agility drills that can help you be better when you're put on the spot, and it builds confidence, too.

Matt Abrahams: It's like, "I can do that. If I can do this when I pick a random word, I can do this when somebody asks me a question that I know a lot about the topic on." So it's a way of building confidence and helping with that in-the-moment processing.

Andrew Huberman: I feel like people over the age of 15 are not terribly comfortable embracing these theater-like games because it seems childlike.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But it's actually that childlike level of curiosity and communication that you're seeking when you're going to be an effective communicator.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. A class I co-teach at Stanford, through their continuing studies program, is called Improvisationally Speaking. I partner with a gentleman named Adam Tobin, who's an excellent improviser, and together I bring the communication piece. And it's a way of giving people baby steps and permission to do some of these improv games, because we directly link a particular improv activity to a specific communication need, and when people see that, they open up.

Matt Abrahams: At Stanford's Graduate School of Business, there are several courses that bring in improvisational ideas into very serious things, how to be a manager and adapt to management skills through improv, how to demonstrate your status and power through some of the things that improv teaches. So taking improv, or at least understanding some of those principles, certainly can help.

Andrew Huberman: When I think about the truly archival, important information on the internet, very few things break through.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I sometimes play this game. I think, "What is true legacy content on the internet?" And one of the things that breaks through is Steve Jobs' 2015, I think it was, commencement speech at Stanford.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: The "I Have a Dream" speech, obviously, by Martin Luther King.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: JFK said some pretty important things.

Matt Abrahams: Yes, yes.

Andrew Huberman: Those were written speeches.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And they're reading from a script, and they include a story in many cases.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So it fits, and yet in the Jobs speech, which I've listened to many times, he's reading from a piece of paper. So it runs counter to a lot of what we're talking about, and yet, it's extremely effective communication.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Why do you think those examples, let's just say JFK, Martin Luther King, Steve Jobs... I should probably include a few others, but those are the ones that come to mind.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Why do you think those are, at least, among the most effective incidents of great communication that linger in people's minds?

Matt Abrahams: Well, there are several factors. One, I think, is that they're incredibly well-written. They are poetic. They are aspirational. They use rhetorical flourishes that make them memorable, repetition, alliteration, things like that. They also are in a context and in a time when those messages were really important and needed, and though they echo, they connect at a level of what's going on in the zeitgeist of the moment.

Matt Abrahams: JFK's moonshot speech, Martin Luther King's civil rights speech.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Steve Jobs's "I would argue what was going on in the economy and the environment at that time." That message really resonated. So I think it's a match of context and timing. It's a match of really important ideas presented in a really important way with specific rhetorical flourishes that really make them memorable.

Matt Abrahams: And I think also the character that those people brought to it also makes a difference as well. I think other people could say those words and not have the same impact.

Andrew Huberman: I'm having a hard time coming up with a memory from the last 5 to 10 years of really important public communication moments. I can remember certain things happening that were televised and online, but those were more things that happened.

Matt Abrahams: I think we're getting noisier. Not I think, I know we're getting noisier. There are more messages out there. Even in the case of Steve Jobs, which was the most recent in the example you gave, things weren't as noisy. It wasn't as crowded, right? And so I think it's hard to hear those phrases or those speeches in these environments where there's so much noise going on.

Andrew Huberman: Certainly, when we observe traumatic events, those are flashbulb memories.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I remember the shuttle disaster.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Certainly 9/11. I think the most salient recent one would be the assassination, excuse me, of Charlie Kirk. You know, everyone knew about that.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And it was on video.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Right? It's such a different thing for people to see a grainy video versus a high-definition video, which is what we see now.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: So that in some sense, it creates this different threshold for what's memorable.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And those are all tragic events.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: JFK's assassination, it's this grainy video, and somebody shot at a distance, and very few things get in the domain of not tragic, not traumatic get a big signal-to-noise that really lasts long.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: I think that's true, and I think people... That we don't have the... People who aren't referring to the same channels, so people are getting the information differently as well.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And that's also dividing our attention, so we're not seeing these things really bubble up. But I do think it's also a commentary on where we're at as a society as well. I think it would be lovely if we heard more and more positive speeches that resonate with people that we're citing and quoting years from now.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think about this a lot.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I think about the non-bad events that get a big signal with noise.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And there are... None that come to mind right now.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Forgive me, folks, if I'm missing some recent thing where some puppy did a super cute thing, but there are so many millions of those videos that I think we've become saturated.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's like the information equivalent of highly processed food. Like, our senses have been dulled.

Matt Abrahams: I think there's some truth in that, and I also think we're moving away from traditional oration as it used to be done, right? There just aren't forums for that. You can watch some TED Talks. There are some amazing TED Talks out there and other talks of that caliber.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: But I don't know that any have risen to the level that you're referring to.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think Brené Brown's TED Talk on vulnerability is one of the ones that I think is really legacy.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: Most people younger than 18 probably haven't heard it, but anyway, we'll put a link to it.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And then there are a bunch of other really great TED Talks as well. You have an amazing TED Talk.

Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you.

Andrew Huberman: I saw one talk online with 24 million views. It's not a trivial number of views.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And it was an hour-long conversation about effective communication.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So clearly, people care about effective communication.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think that people being good at one-on-one conversation makes them better at on-stage conversation, or do you think these are two completely different skills?

Matt Abrahams: I get this question a lot. I think there's a Venn diagram. There are people who are able to connect one-on-one in a way that's hard to do on a stage. A lot of it has to do with what academics call immediacy. I'm present with you, I'm focused. We're engaged in that way, and that doesn't necessarily translate on a big stage or in a meeting. But some of the skills do translate.

Matt Abrahams: It's having structure, having focus in terms of a goal for what you're saying, being able to start in a way that's compelling. So it's a Venn diagram, and there are people who can command a presence on a stage, and you put them in front of one person, and they don't know how to respond. So in terms of messaging, I think there's a lot of overlap. In terms of presence, I think it really varies a lot. But I believe everybody can learn to be better at communication.

Matt Abrahams: I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't believe that. So if you are good interpersonally but not so good in front of a large group, use the skills you have. Find a path to hone and develop those skills in a different environment. And similarly, if you're good on a big stage, let's take what you do there and find avenues to help you interpersonally. But they're not always the same, and there are some people who are good at both.

Andrew Huberman: I'm excited to share that Mateína, the yerba mate drink I helped create, is now available at Whole Foods stores nationwide. Longtime listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source. It provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters, and it has a lot of other potential benefits, including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more. Mateína is my absolute favorite of all the yerba mate brands out there, and I've tried them all.

Andrew Huberman: Given my love for Mateína, I decided to become a part-owner in the business, and I helped them create their new line of products, which are all entirely zero-sugar. These zero-sugar cold brew Mateína flavors are fantastic. I drink at least three cans of them every single day. You'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings. I absolutely love the product, and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods. So check out Mateína at Whole Foods stores nationwide. It's cold-brewed with the absolute best ingredients. It has zero sugar, and it tastes amazing. And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmateina.com.

Andrew Huberman: These days, we hear quite often about neurotypical and neuroatypical.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: And I do think there's a distinct difference in the conversational style, the amount of prosody.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I don't want to say affect, because I have some close friends who are neuroatypical, and they tell me, and I believe them, that they have every bit as much emotion underneath their voice as somebody who's, like, really sharing that emotion in these inflections of voice, and their bodily movements.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think that we need to adjust our kind of concept of what effective communication is, based on this, what seems to be an expansion of, at least, the understanding of neurotypical and neuroatypical?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I certainly don't mean to conflate neurodiversity, and introversion, and extroversion. But the question you're asking to me is, I hear it as a similar way, is "Is there one right way to communicate or one better way, and people who don't communicate that way, are they at a disadvantage?"

Matt Abrahams: I think there are expectations for what effective communication is. But I think we can expand it, and there is value for people regardless of if it's neurodiversity or introversion, for example. Extroversion tends to get rewarded just because you hear it, you see it. But I think there are things that we can learn from people who are neurodiverse that can help to really connect and be better communicators.

Matt Abrahams: So too, in the way that folks who are highly introverted communicate can help. There is certainly no one right way to communicate. There are better ways and worst ways, and regardless of where you are in terms of introversion, extroversion, or neurodiversity, you can communicate effectively. Play to your strengths. There are things that introverts do that are amazing, that really help move communication forward. People with certain types of neurodiversity, in terms of the creativity or the level of detail with which they communicate, can be really helpful. We just have to find those advantages and lean into them to help.

Andrew Huberman: I find that when it comes to podcast guests, if somebody wrote a book at some point, they tend to be pretty comfortable podcasting,

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: independent of whether they've been on a lot of podcasts before.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Which raises the question: Is the practice of writing out one's thoughts, by hand or typing them out, an effective way to prepare to speak or just get better at speaking generally? And I do understand that eventually, if you want to get better at push-ups, you've got to do push-ups.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: If you want to get speaking, you have to speak.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But do you think writing and transferring ideas onto paper helps people become better communicators?

Matt Abrahams: Short answer is yes, but I think it's a two-part process. The first part is the thought process that goes into what you're going to write. Having written some books, I know you're writing a book; you think differently about your content. You have to think about the audience. You have to think about, "How do these pieces fit together? Is there a scaffolding that's needed?" So, it's the thought process that helps.

Matt Abrahams: But then the actual putting pen to paper, fingers on keyboards, when you have to make word choice, when you have to think about the syntax, the grammar. You are more intimately involved with your content than you are when you're just thinking about the ideas. So, I think at both levels, it's helping you hone your message.

Matt Abrahams: I'm a very nervous writer. I'm not a very nervous speaker. I am very nervous about what I write. But I'm a better editor than I am writer, and that editing process really trains your brain to be ready to respond to questions, to focus on information. And so, I think each of those steps, the ideation, the actual crafting, and then the editing, prepares you to communicate better. And all of us can use different parts of those. You don't have to write a book to be able to use those skills to speak better.

Andrew Huberman: I used to prepare my scientific talks by building the slides.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I required that there be nothing else going on in the room, because in my head, I'm thinking about what I'm going to say as I build the slides. So, the building of the slides oneself, including sometimes the illustrations, et cetera, was an important part of preparing the talk.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I find that if I can just cut and paste figures, it's much worse.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I call it a "Franken-deck." People accumulate different slides and slam them all together, like Frankenstein was an amalgamation. There's no story there. There's no thought process that ties it all together. So, the slide was the manifestation of your thought process.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And that's why I think it was so useful to you.

Andrew Huberman: Can I share a story?

Matt Abrahams: Sure.

Andrew Huberman: You're the guest, but I really want your thoughts on this.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: We have a colleague at Stanford. His name escapes me, forgive me, but years ago, we were "Pew Fellows," which was this group where you-

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, congratulations.

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I still don't know how it happened for me, but it happened. Anyway, we had to give our talks the fourth year.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And talk about being in a room full of people where you're like, "Whoa!" "There's some serious..." So, people from all around the country, and, you know, it's not just neuroscience.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And so, you know, you're humbled to be there.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I don't care how good you are; many people in the room are going to be better than you.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: There's this one guy. He's now a faculty member at Stanford. And for his talk, he got up there, and he said, "Rather than show you a bunch of data, I'm going to play you a movie and a song."

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And he put up this video of these oil droplets bumping into one another, and the sound or the song corresponded to the oil droplets bumping into one another. And my first thought was, "This guy's crazy." Like, he's legitimately crazy, or he just kind of doesn't care.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And this is pretty cool. But then he went on to give a talk about how he was using sound in order to develop novel molecules. He went on to win a MacArthur Genius Award. He's built $1 microscopes and centrifuges that they're using in Africa to diagnose diseases in areas that have very little funding. He's one of those.

Matt Abrahams: Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I remember thinking, like, "Wow! This guy is incredible."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Just spectacular levels of communication ability. I think he actually is a genius.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You know, these Genius Awards, it's kind of a funny name, right?

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And I realized-

Matt Abrahams: I wouldn't know, no I never got one.

Andrew Huberman: What's that?

Matt Abrahams: I never got one.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, me either.

Matt Abrahams: Not yet. Yeah, so.

Andrew Huberman: And I think some people that get them are geniuses, and I think some are not, frankly, you know.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But that talk was really... It wasn't just humbling, it was really eye-opening for me.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Because it made me realize that if somebody has true command of the material, and they believe in their own unique vision enough, that you really can use something as what seems as vague as a bunch of oil droplets bumping into one... I mean, it was pretty, but it looked like a lava lamp, frankly, and some music.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But it was the perfect bring-around because it was such a high signal-to-noise.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And hats off to him. He's amazing. If people try to do that, and it doesn't work, it fails spectacularly.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: If it works, it succeeds spectacularly. So, do you think there's something to... You know, whether or not we should stay conventional, or we should try hooks like that? I never once thought I should do something like that when giving a talk. But it was... I mean, you can probably tell by the way I'm relaying the story.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It still sits in my body as one of the more fantastic experiences in my entire academic career.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, like, that was incredible, and I'll never forget it.

Matt Abrahams: I think what that particular talk did, is it violated expectations. And in so doing, it made it stand out. Should people test boundaries and push things in communication? I think they should. But I think we need to be a little thoughtful about that, and perhaps A/B test them, run them by some other people. Say, "I'm thinking of doing this. What do you think?" And make sure that the risk you're taking is calculated.

Matt Abrahams: I have this conversation all the time with my students, and the people I coach around humor. Now, I'm not saying telling a joke is similar to your experience, but it involves risk, and if it works, humor is an amazing way to connect. But if it fails, it's a great way to disconnect. So, you have to think it through. You have to understand the costs and the benefits, and I think test it out on a few people, and then see what happens.

Matt Abrahams: It sounds like this person not only had violated expectations, but they were able to give you a visceral experience of what it was that they were studying. So, it wasn't just a concept, which many of these... You and I both attend lots of academic talks. I mean, it can get very theoretical, very conceptual, but made it very tangible. And because of that, that was helpful to the goal that they were trying to achieve.

Matt Abrahams: So, I often challenge people: How could you communicate this information in a way that really gets people engaged and involved? Could you do something on a whiteboard? Could you use an analogy? Is there a story you could tell or a question you can ask, rather than just detailing the information? So, do something that violates an expectation, but it's in line with, and supports the goal that you have.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think that some introspection about who one is, is helpful? You know, I couldn't give that talk. Even if I had half the knowledge, I couldn't give that talk. I can give the talk that I give. And sometimes I wonder whether even if a talk is very dry, it works because the person is dry.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Or if somebody is more theatrical, it works because the person is theatrical outside of the talk. This kind of brings us back to authenticity.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Sometimes I wonder if people just need to figure out who they are and how they process information in the world, and just try and share that. The same way that a musician would share their song or an artist would share their visual art, or some other form of art, because that's the filter that they experience the world through. I mean, I think a lot of times we want to hear things because we want to access these other portals that we can't get to.

Matt Abrahams: I think understanding what works for you and where your strengths are, is absolutely important, but at the same time, you don't know where some of those strengths are if you don't try other things.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And that's why, coming back to this notion of improv as that one example, you don't know until you do it, where your comfort levels are and where those boundaries are. And you might learn that there are some things you can do really well, that would help you be a better communicator. So, absolutely investigating what works for you, and leveraging that is important, but also expand a little bit to see where you can grow.

Matt Abrahams: I think the work you do, the work I try to do in terms of podcasting, and writing, and teaching, we're trying to expose people to more information that they could then adapt and adopt, so that they can perhaps expand the way they communicate, they research, whatever it is. So, I think you do have to absolutely play to your strengths, but you have to explore what those strengths might be as well. I'd hate for everybody just to do only what they're good at.

Andrew Huberman: Can we talk about damage control?

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: I do think having coached students and postdocs through public speaking and having seen one complete meltdown-

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: This person's now a professor. He's doing incredible work. He went on to get a job and everything, but during a practice talk, in front of a small number of people, it was, like, total meltdown. Total meltdown, no recovery, we had to just delay and do it another time, despite-

Matt Abrahams: So, he literally just stopped talking and walked off the-

Andrew Huberman: He froze, and he apologized, and then we said, "No, it's fine."

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, it was a small venue, and then we tried to encourage him along, and maybe he hadn't slept well.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: He had a lot going on.

Matt Abrahams: Right. Right.

Andrew Huberman: But it ended with him sitting on the side of the stage, asking everyone to please leave.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, okay.

Andrew Huberman: So, it was heavy.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It was heavy, and it was very important for us to all get back in the room again.

Andrew Huberman: And he did that, and then he went on the job market, and he got a position, and he's a tenured faculty member someplace now.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Great.

Andrew Huberman: He recovered himself as... You know, we all have bad days, but I think hearing that, some people are probably like, "Oh, my goodness!"

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: What to do if one does forget what they're trying to say on stage?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Or just choke?

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I recommend if people are nervous, that they actually have some outlet for that movement, as I talked about before.

Matt Abrahams: Yes, yes.

Andrew Huberman: Pacing or even bouncing one's knee behind the podium, very effective at dispelling energy and getting one to relax.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I just think it's been a useful tool for me, and I think for others I've suggested to as well. But how bad do you think it is if somebody suddenly stops on stage and just says, "Sorry, I've lost my train of thought," and goes back to it? Do you think it humanizes them, or do you think that it actually is deadly for the message?

Matt Abrahams: Like with my students, I have to say it depends. It depends on the circumstance that you're in. I do believe that audiences are more forgiving. What I advise the people I teach and coach to do in those moments is, instead of saying, "Oh, I forgot what I want to say," why not say, "I get sometimes so passionate about what I say, I get a little ahead of myself"? Which is likely true, and use that as a reason to reset.

Matt Abrahams: Let me share with you what I advise people to do to avoid blanking out, and then what to do if you do blank out. First and foremost, avoid memorizing. Memorizing invites blanking out. So let's not memorize. Let's have a clear structure, a roadmap, but we don't know every word that we're going to say.

Matt Abrahams: The fear of blanking out leads and increases the likelihood of blanking out. So, let's not worry about blanking out as much as we do. How do we do that? We rationalize. I ask everybody to think about, "What is the likelihood in this upcoming communication, whatever it is, one-on-one, big presentation, that you'll blank out?" Most people say maybe 20%. Well, that means 80% of the time you're not going to blank out. I'm not a betting person; I'd take those odds.

Matt Abrahams: So, realizing that it's not as likely to happen, that's step one. Step two, ask yourself, "If it were to happen, what's the worst thing that would happen for me?" Well, it would be incredibly embarrassing, it would be awkward, and it might have some short-term implications.

Matt Abrahams: But who in their life hasn't been embarrassed, been in situations that are awkward, and had short-term implications? So, when you put it in that context, all of a sudden, blanking out isn't as likely as you think, and it's not as bad as you think. That reduces the stress you have about doing it, which reduces the likelihood.

Matt Abrahams: So, by not memorizing and rationalizing, you can actually reduce the likelihood of blanking out. Now, let's say the worst happens: You blank out. You don't know what to say. First and best thing to do is just what you'd do if you lose your phone or lose your keys: Retrace your steps. Repeat what you just said. Most of us can remember what we just said, and then that gets us back on track.

Matt Abrahams: If that doesn't work, the final rip cord, I think you can pull, is to distract your audience. What does that mean? Ask a question. This will happen to me. I teach the same class a lot. Sometimes I can't remember, "Did I say this this time?" I just need a moment to think. I'll just pause, and I'll ask my students a question.

Matt Abrahams: They think that's logical. Anybody can come up with a question. If you ever hear me, anybody listening, if you ever hear me say, "I want to pause for a moment, and have you think about what we've just discussed can be applied to your life." That means I have forgotten what I want to say next. In my mind, I'm like, "What the heck do I say next?" Most of the people in my audience are like, "How would I apply that in my life? That's great." It gives me that fraction of a second, gives me that sense of control.

Matt Abrahams: Most of us can leverage a question to buy us that time. So, let's not say, "Oh, my goodness, I've forgotten. It's the worst thing ever." "I get passionate sometimes, I get ahead of myself, give me a moment." Or just ask a question. It's similar to... I advise people who are nervous speakers never to say, "Oh, excuse me, I'm so nervous." A lot of people try to pre-apologize for their nervousness, and all they do is prime us to pay attention to everything they do that's nervous. So, let's not call attention to the mistakes we make. Let's just do what we can to get through them, and that's going to help.

Andrew Huberman: Great advice that I'm sure will help a lot of people.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: I hope so.

Andrew Huberman: The most spectacular example of a recovery I've ever seen was actually a job talk at Stanford.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I don't know if I should include this person's name. He's now a professor at UNC Chapel Hill, but he could have been a faculty member at Stanford because of, I think, the data, but also what happened was he spilled water into his laptop during the talk.

Matt Abrahams: Oh!

Andrew Huberman: You know, they have a podium, where everyone's given water, in case you get thirsty.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Keep the water below, folks. And he spilled it, but the way he handled it was so cool.

Matt Abrahams: What'd he do?

Andrew Huberman: It spilled. He didn't say anything. He took the bottle, put the cap back on, put it underneath, reached underneath, and there was no towel. He said, "Could somebody, perhaps, get me a paper towel or a towel?"

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: They brought him a towel. He sopped up whatever moisture was on his laptop. He said nothing the entire time. This is Mark Zylka. He's a total bada**. And then he went back and finished his talk.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It was like...

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: That was awesome.

Matt Abrahams: Composed under pressure.

Andrew Huberman: That was awesome.

Matt Abrahams: You know, contingency planning is a really important part of all communication; thinking about what could happen that would lead this conversation or communication in one direction or the other, positive or negative? How would I respond? It makes sense. You know, when you plan a trip, a vacation, you think about what happens if the flight's delayed? What happens if the room isn't ready? We should do that in our communication as well, not to script it out, but just to be ready.

Matt Abrahams: So, I think everybody listening now, "What would you do if your technology didn't work in that moment?" Think about it. And then when it happens, you've got that recovery plan, and you just build that confidence. Perhaps, he had thought about, "What happens if I can't use my tech?" And that's what helped him be calm.

Andrew Huberman: Incidentally, he works on pain.

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

Andrew Huberman: I don't know what that's worth. But it was just an awesome display of calm under pressure.

Matt Abrahams: Confidence. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Or something under pressure. I think it was the fact that he just kept things moving forward.

Matt Abrahams: And stood in silence. The ability to stand in silence in front of people demonstrates confidence in so many ways. And so, the fact that he was able to take care of business in silence, I think, added to that.

Andrew Huberman: I feel like when people get nervous, their voice gets up into their heads.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: They start going up on their tiptoes, and they start asphyxiating themselves by speaking much higher than their natural tone of voice is.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, sometimes I encourage people to slow down, and try and drop their voice down further into their throat and chest a little bit.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: It can be artificial, like there's one very salient example of a former CEO, who perhaps didn't have the voice that they spoke with.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But assuming it's still your voice, right?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah?

Matt Abrahams: You taught me, when you were a guest on my show, a lot about breath and how breath can impact not only your confidence and the anxiety you feel, but also how doing breathwork can really help you still your whole body. And allow your natural voice to come out. Because when we get anxious, we breathe shallow, less air is being pushed out, it's being pushed out faster, and our voice starts sounding like this. And sometimes this is actually really appropriate. If I'm really excited about something, I should sound like this, but I want it under my control. So, breathwork and having an authentic, natural voice is really important.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, one thing you might find interesting, that's come out in the literature since the last time we spoke, is that, while the physiological side, double inhale, long exhale, is still the best way to calm down quickly, turns out that all exhale-emphasized breathing slows the heart down.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Just subtly, but significantly enough that it helps you calm down.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, if people can't remember what breathwork to do, physiological side, just emphasize an exhale. Extend it, make it a little bit more vigorous.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: If you need to be covert about it, maybe just extend it a little bit, maybe walk back to the podium or away, and do that long exhale. That seems to really make a big difference because you're offloading carbon dioxide, but also there's this pathway through the vagus nerve that literally slows your heart rate down when you exhale. It's pretty spectacular that we have these mechanisms in us, you know?

Matt Abrahams: I think it's fantastic, and I give credit to you at every single lecture I give when I talk about anxiety. I talk about what you shared with me. It's all about the exhale, and I will always say, "The rule of thumb," and then I'll joke, "The rule of lung, is you want your exhale to always be longer than your inhale to help you calm down." And people have found that liberating. So I appreciate that you shared that with me, and know that others are taking advantage of that.

Andrew Huberman: You're welcome, and it came from a place of need, that I came across those tools.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Because I think that we can prepare, prepare, prepare.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But it's the knowledge that things happen in the moment that we can't control.

Matt Abrahams: That's right.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, that's the really scary thing. Right?

Matt Abrahams: That's right. And if you think about it, most of our communication is that it's spontaneous. We don't know what's going to happen. I mean, a lot of what you and I have been talking about is planned communication. It's the presentation, the pitch, the meeting with an agenda. But most of our communication is spontaneous. We don't know how it's going to unfold. You ask me a question. I don't know what that question is. I don't even know if I know the answer. You ask me for feedback. I make a mistake. I have to fix it.

Matt Abrahams: Most of our communication is spontaneous, and getting comfortable with that discomfort of not knowing how this will transpire is a big part of the mindset shift that you have to have to do better in spontaneous speaking.

Andrew Huberman: Beta blockers, yes. Beta blockers, no.

Matt Abrahams: No. So, I have a heart condition, and I take beta blockers regularly. And I see how it slows down your thinking and your body. I'm not a fan. I think cognitive behavioral ways of managing anxiety, much better.

Matt Abrahams: I'm not a medical doctor, obviously. There are some people for whom beta blockers might work, but I actively discourage people if they're just wanting to take it to manage anxiety. I think there are so many other things we can do first, before you have to go there. But my experience has been, it makes me fuzzy, and I'm not as quick.

Andrew Huberman: Which makes sense, because you're not getting as much oxygen and blood to your brain.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Getting a great night's sleep the night before clearly helps. What do you do, or recommend for people that get a lousy night's sleep the night before?

Matt Abrahams: Well, I would like to ask you that question. I am an awful sleeper. I am a really, really-

Andrew Huberman: Oh, we can fix that.

Matt Abrahams: Good.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Well, let's fix that today, because I am a lousy sleeper. Absolutely, it is better to get a good night's sleep than it is to stay up all night cramming. I tell everybody to train for a big communication event, like you would train for a sporting event. You need to eat well. I call it communication hygiene. You need to eat well, sleep well, exercise. It is much better to stay on routine, than to deviate from your routine.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: There is some research around caffeine consumption. Caffeine consumption is actually really good when you're ideating for creativity. When you actually go to present, you shouldn't deviate from whatever your standard protocol is for caffeine. You shouldn't all of a sudden go cold turkey. But taking additional caffeine because you didn't sleep well the night before can just agitate you during the presentation and communication. So, getting a good night's sleep is great. I am not the best person to give advice on how to do it.

Andrew Huberman: Well, we could have a long discussion about this. We're going to save some of it for afterwards.

Matt Abrahams: And I listen to you-

Andrew Huberman: I would say the couple of things that have helped me over the years, traveling to give talks, both for the podcast and academic stuff, et cetera, is if you're going to stay in a hotel, pull the plug on the alarm clock in the hotel.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Use your phone instead. Put it on airplane mode, use that phone. Why? Because I've been woken up many times at 4:00 in the morning, because someone prior to me had set the alarm clock.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: That just happened the other week with me.

Andrew Huberman: Okay, I always unplug that. I actually cover all the bright lights in the room. I put a towel by the door crack.

Matt Abrahams: Ah, okay. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, an eye mask is ideal.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I try to ask for a room away from the elevator, because that'll keep you up all night.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Those are just some of the zero-cost things that are very helpful. But the number one thing to recover sleep that you didn't get is this non-sleep deep rest, AKA Yoga Nidra practice. Yoga Nidra is the thousands of year old practice of doing long exhale breathing. It's a 10 to 30-minute practice.

Andrew Huberman: We can provide some links to scripts for these that are excellent, where you're slowing your heart rate down, you're doing a body scan, but the goal during Yoga Nidra is to stay awake with your body relaxed. And it teaches you how to fall asleep more easily.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I would argue, based on experience, that Yoga Nidra and NSDR, which is essentially the same thing, but we've removed the intentions, and I just call it non-sleep deep rest, these are zero-cost scripts out there.

Matt Abrahams: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: My voice, other people's voice, also teaches you how to be very alert and very relaxed in your body at the same time, which is a very valuable skill for a lot of different venues, including public speaking.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, it will get you better at falling and falling back asleep. So, I can send some to you.

Matt Abrahams: Awesome.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Abrahams: I'm going to partake as soon as we're done.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and of course, you're not drinking much caffeine, right? You said you only drink-

Matt Abrahams: I do one cup of tea a day.

Andrew Huberman: So, it can't be overconsumption of caffeine?

Matt Abrahams: No, it's my... I get in my head, and I think too much.

Andrew Huberman: Your forebrain's working too hard.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Yoga Nidra will help with that.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

Andrew Huberman: Because the essence of Yoga Nidra and NSDR, forgive me, but it works so well, and it's zero cost.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So it's one of these things, like, I'm not trying to pitch anything, you know, where you have to go pay for something.

Matt Abrahams: I'm always-

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I didn't develop it. It's been around for a long time. There's this instruction in Yoga Nidra that's also in these NSDRs, where you teach yourself to move your brain from a state of thinking and doing, to just being and feeling, to literally get out of thought.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And to do that is very difficult, unless you give your brain enough to do. And this is why NSDR instructs you to do a kind of focused body scan and relaxation, because if you just try and not think, it doesn't work.

Matt Abrahams: Right. You think about not thinking.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. There's also some really interesting data on the vestibular system in falling asleep. I'll share this now, just so you can try it.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I did this last night. I woke up at once in the middle of the night. Keep your eyes closed. If you have to get up and use the restroom, do that first.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But keep your eyes closed, and move your eyes slowly from side to side. This is not EMDR.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But move your eyes from side to side, then move them up with your eyelids still closed, down, roll them left or counterclockwise, roll them right, clockwise, and then try and cross them a little bit, like stare at the bridge of your nose and exhale. Now, this might sound crazy. It sounds completely wacky, right?

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But what it does is it takes your vestibular system into a state, we know this based on data, that mimics the state you're trying to achieve, which is that you need to forget about your body's position.

Matt Abrahams: Oh!

Andrew Huberman: You can't fall asleep if you're thinking about your body position.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: In fact, one of the prerequisites to falling asleep is forgetting about that, which is why, there are now also data showing that rocking back and forth, the reason it's effective at making babies and adults fall asleep, they have beds that actually rock from side to side, is because you forget about your body position when your whole body is in motion.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Huh.

Andrew Huberman: So, try this, and I think you'll find that it will greatly facilitate falling or falling back asleep.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Tonight I'm putting it into practice. I get free consulting here.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, sure.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

Andrew Huberman: Sure, sure. Yeah, because I think that a decent night's sleep the night before is great; otherwise, do NSDR in the morning or before a talk if you can.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I think anything to bring your level of autonomic arousal down if you're sleep-deprived can help bring more ease to the public speaking.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Yep.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Something else that I really encourage people to do to help is to have a conversation prior to whatever the big communication is.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah. This is huge.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: To connect with people, have a conversation. Whenever I do a keynote, whenever I'm doing a big presentation, I will always be talking to people. Sometimes, I have to go find them, because I'm behind stage, and I've got to wait till the big introduction. I'll go find somebody and just have a conversation.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: That focus and present orientation that it brings, and just that act of speaking, I am so amazed at... You know, anybody who does any athletics or music, you know you should warm up first, but people don't warm up before they speak. They think they can go from silence to brilliance without it.

Matt Abrahams: Having a communication with somebody, as mundane as you want it, can really help. Do you use this technique? It looked like it resonated with you.

Andrew Huberman: Absolutely, because I've often, and I still spend a lot of time preparing for podcasts and doing things in isolation.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And I've noticed that if I do that for too long, and then I go to the corner cafe, the conversation with the barista feels like, "What is going on here?" Because you're in your head.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Then it starts to feel like relief, and then your brain shifts to a different state.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: A long time ago, I realized that having some form of communication en route to a talk or something can be very helpful.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I've found, and I'd be curious what you think, that part of that is the speaking, part of it is also the taking turns piece.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Because we're going to be speaking, it's generally just us speaking. But that really... Getting into a conversation where I listen to what's coming back, forces me to also practice withholding speech.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Because I feel like a lot of bad talks are when people are just kind of fire-hosing, or they're adding little elements to the sentences where they don't need them. And it's just nervous. It's just nervousness.

Matt Abrahams: Right. Filling the space.

Andrew Huberman: Filling the space.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, there's some... Like you said, you need to warm up.

Matt Abrahams: Right, and that turn-taking, that switching, is engaging for the brain. I would suggest, though, that when you are up on a stage giving a big presentation, leading a big meeting, you can actually engage in dialogue. It's not just calling on people, but you can also ask them. You can say, "Imagine what it would be like if..." and now you're imagining it. You're responding, even though I'm not hearing it.

Matt Abrahams: I can use an analogy or tell a story. We are communicating, taking turns. In essence, you're just not responding vocally to me. So, a big challenge is to be engaging, and there are several ways to do it. There's physical engagement, getting people doing something. There's mental engagement, using analogies, stories, and questions. There's linguistic engagement, taking people into the future or the past by saying, "Picture this," or "Imagine how it used to be." Those are ways of getting a dialogue going, even though the other person isn't speaking back, versus just me broadcasting information.

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests, that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

Andrew Huberman: They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are experts in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

Andrew Huberman: Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.

Andrew Huberman: Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people. But they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

Andrew Huberman: I'd love your thoughts on an experience that I've had, that I think many people have, where one of the most terrifying things is when you are in a small room, maybe 10, 15, 20 people, and they say, "We're going to go around the table. Introduce yourself, who you are."

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Like, I want to go first, because if I have to hear people go, and then it's coming around, I don't know why, but some circuit must ramp up where as soon as I start speaking, I'm, like, hearing my own voice.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And I don't have any problem with public speaking, and guess, people haven't noticed.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But there's something about that anticipation, without it being my turn to speak, that makes it, like, really awkward.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And then I realized at some point, if I just focus on myself and just really listen to what people are saying.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: When it comes around, you just say, "I'm Andrew," or "You're whoever," and then you share the information that needs to be shared.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But if I'm anticipating having to speak, it's terrifying.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. It's that build-up, because it's getting closer, and closer, and closer. And the anxiety that you're feeling is getting stronger and stronger. I don't like "Go around the room and introduce yourself." If there's a need for people to do that, I will always have people partner up or get in groups of three, and then have somebody introduce somebody else. It's just much easier.

Matt Abrahams: I do exactly, and I coach exactly what you do. I tell people, "Listen to everybody else, and think to yourself a question you would ask them based on what they've said," because that causes you really to focus on what they're saying.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: So, you're not getting into your head, and you're not really living at the peak of all the anxiety feelings you're having.

Matt Abrahams: Now, to help people introduce themselves. I have a way I like to teach people to introduce themselves. Don't start with your name. Start with something you care about, you're passionate about, something that interests you, and then say who you are. For two reasons. There's actually a third.

Matt Abrahams: First is, you're going to stand out, because nobody does this, so people are actually going to remember you. Second, if you start with something you're passionate about, you care about, you can use emotion and inflect your voice. It's very hard to inflect your voice when you say your name. And then finally, if you're a non-native speaker or you're speaking to non-native speakers who might have an accent, hearing something in advance primes our brain to say, "Oh, that's how that person speaks," so we'll actually pay attention and understand their name more.

Matt Abrahams: I don't know about you, but when people with accents introduce themselves to me, sometimes it's hard for me to remember their name because my brain is trying to get used to, "That's how they speak." So, you're helping everybody. So, when I introduce myself, I don't say, "I'm Matt Abrahams." I say, "I'm somebody who's passionate about communication. My name's Matt Abrahams," and then I'll say something else.

Andrew Huberman: You'll do this at a party?

Matt Abrahams: Well, as sort of-

Andrew Huberman: Or social setting?

Matt Abrahams: So, I envision what you were saying as more like a meeting, not a party.

Andrew Huberman: Ah, right, right.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I have got you.

Matt Abrahams: But even at a party, I might talk about the environment first, or connect myself to the environment before I say my name.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, but I think leading with something that you care about, or are concerned about, or something in the environment, before you say your name, is a much better way to introduce yourself. It can't be too long, but it can really help.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Try it, the next time you introduce yourself.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's an interesting one. I miss having a dog, because the dog could absorb a lot of the awkwardness.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, yeah?

Andrew Huberman: He was just so handsome.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah?

Andrew Huberman: People had to look at him.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You know?

Matt Abrahams: Having a young child does the same thing.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah. Like, kids are a wonderful bridge to all sorts of things.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: But you can find those bridges in lots of things. Yeah. A now dear, close friend of mine, I met waiting in line... I was at a conference. You know these academic conferences. We were at some buffet line.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: And I didn't know anybody. I was sent by my department. And there's this guy standing next to me. We were standing too close, where we kind of had to talk.

Matt Abrahams: And I just looked around the room, and I noticed that lots of people were wearing different shades of blue, and I just said, "Did I miss the memo about wearing blue?" And he looks around, and he said, "Yeah, that's weird." And we started a conversation there.

Matt Abrahams: I didn't need a dog. I didn't need a kid. I just made an observation, and that broke the ice enough for us to talk, and now we're good friends. Whenever I travel to where he is, I visit.

Matt Abrahams: Whenever he's out here, he visits.

Andrew Huberman: Hmm.

Matt Abrahams: So, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves around this initiation of communication, and just being inquisitive and commenting on something in the environment can help.

Andrew Huberman: Can we do the British wind-up? A lot of people won't know what that is. There's this much older lady that lives in my neighborhood, and she has this little, tiny dog.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I figure if I just walk over to her, she's going to be a little scared. But I see her often.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And so do a wind-up. I walked over to her, and I said, "Wait, is that the dog that mauled that kid over in Inglewood?" And she was like, "You're pulling my leg." And then we become friends, right?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: No, because I'm not going to just walk up to her and be, "Hey, can..."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Because it's like someone looming on you.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's a little scary, right? So I stole the wind.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: In Britain, I think they call it a wind-up.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: Right?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So I wasn't trying to be funny, I really like this lady, and her dog is super cute. And clearly, I need to get another dog.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: If one thing has come from this interview, it's Andrew needs another dog.

Andrew Huberman: Thanks to you, many more things have come from this interview of far more utility as well.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But, I don't suggest anyone smoke, but I think back in the day, this was the whole thing of people bumming a smoke.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: They'd take breaks.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I worked a job where I did some packaging and building of scooters and wagons at a toy store in downtown Palo Alto.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Ah.

Andrew Huberman: And on breaks, you'd go into the alley, and there were people working at the bakery next door, and you'd strike up a conversation. I didn't smoke, but you'd strike up a conversation, and then you'd get to know somebody by name.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Right

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But nowadays people are often in their phones.

Matt Abrahams: We use the phone as a pacifier and as a way of not having to engage. I have encouraged my two kids to help them get out of this cycle, to show something that you're looking at on the phone. Invite someone, "Hey, this is pretty cool. What do you think? Check out this meme." So use the phone, as you're saying, that cigarettes used to serve as a way to initiate conversation, as long as it's appropriate.

Matt Abrahams: And it's funny, I know exactly the toy store you're talking about because I know that bakery no longer exists, but I used to go there all the time.

Andrew Huberman: They closed Prolific Oven?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, it's gone.

Andrew Huberman: Oh.

Matt Abrahams: It's now a great restaurant, by the way.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I guess we can say, because it was Palo Alto Toy and Sport World.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It was one of the oldest businesses.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: They had a skateboard shop in the back, but prior to working in the skateboard shop, I sold shoes, and I used to build wagons.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Radio Flyer wagons and tricycles and stuff like that.

Matt Abrahams: I used to go there as a kid because we not only would get a toy, but we'd get to have a treat, too.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.

Matt Abrahams: So yeah, those were fun outings.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that place was cool. It was family-owned.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: All right, well, now we're taking people down memory lane here.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But if in downtown Palo Alto, you can check it out.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I think the sign is still there, but-

Matt Abrahams: It might be.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And that actually brings up something useful. I mean, I had jobs where I was a...

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: They didn't call it a barista then, but I worked at a muffin shop around the corner, which then got me that job, I think, from a conversation across the counter. I think my niece worked a job at selling frozen yogurt before she went off to college recently.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So, get a job.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. No, I think-

Andrew Huberman: As a kid, get a job where you interact with people.

Matt Abrahams: Having a job where you're in customer service as a kid is so educational for so many reasons, communication being an important one. You learn how to communicate with a lot of different people. You learn how to be in service of other people's needs in that moment. I think it's wonderful. My first job, and a job I had a lot during high school, I worked at an athletic club, folding towels. And when people would come in, I would give them the towel, and we'd have some small talk. It taught me to be very comfortable.

Matt Abrahams: I had to announce... I mean, this sounds so silly, but I, "The gym is closing in 30 minutes." But as a high school student, I had to say that with 100 people in the gym? That was nerve-racking, but that was part of my desensitization.

Andrew Huberman: So cool. Yeah, I think that... I don't want to sound old because I am old. I'm 50 now. But I feel good.

Matt Abrahams: You're young, Andrew.

Andrew Huberman: I feel good. I'm going to go another 50 years. That's the goal.

Matt Abrahams: Good.

Andrew Huberman: Hopefully, healthy all along. But I think being a camp counselor is the perfect example of doing something you barely understand how to do and having to project confidence doing it.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, they teach you a few things at least when I did it.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But it's like suddenly you're in charge of all these lives.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, if you think about it, it's pretty wild.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But by the second session, you're in a groove.

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

Andrew Huberman: Like, you're telling people what to do, when to listen, letting them do what they want, when they want. You can't use harsh forms of communication.

Matt Abrahams: And you need to adapt and adjust.

Andrew Huberman: But you need to keep them safe, so you need to use your voice appropriately.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Raise it when it's necessary, if somebody's in danger, that kind of thing. So, doing that sort of thing, I think, is how we learn how to communicate.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, absolutely, and unfortunately, some of those opportunities and jobs are changing, and we have to find other vehicles to help people. When I left high-tech, I taught high school for two years before I graduated to do what I'm doing now, and I learned so much about communication teaching 14, 15-year-olds that I never learned working in adults' running organizations like I did. So getting these opportunities is precious, yet we don't have a lot of those opportunities.

Matt Abrahams: One thing I think we can all do with the younger generation, and even colleagues we have, is role model and talk through some of the things that we're thinking about in terms of our communication. So I, with my children, will often say, "I have to have a difficult conversation tomorrow with a colleague or with a boss, and I'm really worried about this, or I'm thinking about saying it this way." We don't often get meta about our communication, and yet they're learnings that we can pass along.

Matt Abrahams: And you saw it, I see it where we're both affiliated with our teaching. I mean, people are brilliant, and they're really good communicators, but they weren't always that way. They had to learn, and they had to do it. And when you start talking to people, which I have the advantage of doing, is asking them, "How did you get to do that? What do you do?" There's so much richness in that, and I think we just have to open up that conversation, role model it, but also talk about it with the younger people in your life, the people you're trying to build up, and that'll really help.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think by virtue of the pandemic and the lockdowns and social media, that there is a swath of people right now who really don't know how to engage the same way that people even younger than them do?

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So this isn't an ageist thing.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: It's really that they missed out on an opportunity to engage. They talk... What is it, the Gen Z stare?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Is that a real thing?

Matt Abrahams: I don't know about the Gen Z stare, but I do think there are critical periods in development, not just in kids.

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

Matt Abrahams: And I think that generation of kids lost a critical development. One of my sons was in high school, and high school is a great place to learn about yourself and about communication, and if you're doing it through a screen, that's a very different experience.

Matt Abrahams: Now, I think he's a very good communicator, but they missed on an opportunity. A lot of how you learn is by testing and trying things out, and if you've lost a couple of years of that testing, puts you at a disadvantage.

Matt Abrahams: I know because of what I do, we can build that back and learn it, but there is a whole swath of people who had to struggle in a way most of us didn't.

Andrew Huberman: My graduate advisor, who I really admire very much, she's passed away, but I've always admired her was once described by somebody, I think quite aptly, as quiet but not shy.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: And I realize it's a very powerful phenotype. And I mention it because some people listening to this conversation might think, "I'm just not that chatty."

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But they're not necessarily shy.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Like, they're perfectly happy to be in conversation and be quiet until there's something that they want to say.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And sometimes she wouldn't say anything, and sometimes she would say things, and indeed, she was very, very smart, but she's also very at ease.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: So I came to learn that there are people who are quiet, but not shy.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I think that's a phenotype we don't often acknowledge when we hear about introverted, extroverted.

Matt Abrahams: My father was exactly that way. My father, most intelligent person I've ever known. He was very quiet, but he wasn't shy, and if he had something to say, he would say it, and it would often be very profound. And it was the way he lived in the world, and people appreciated it, and he leaned into it. He had opportunities to speak and would sit back, and I learned a lot from him, that sometimes the most effective communication is to just listen and be present.

Matt Abrahams: So I agree that there are people who have a lot of value to add, and they just might be reticent in the moment. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We need diversity not only of ideas and opinions, but diversity in the way we communicate. We hold in our culture, this notion that the extroverted, confident person is the right way to communicate, and that's not always true.

Matt Abrahams: You can get into a lot of trouble, especially extroverts who speak first and think second.

Andrew Huberman: Especially nowadays where everything's recorded.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: People will say stupid things that they wish they hadn't said. I mean, chairs of departments, fortunately not at Stanford, but chairs of major university departments have gotten themselves fired by being too loose with their thumbs on what was formerly called Twitter.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I know at least one prominent example, and you just go like, "What were you thinking?"

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And apparently they weren't filtering well enough.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Brilliant people.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And it wasn't even something that it was clear they really believed. They just said something really offensive and really stupid.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And it's like, at least at that time, it was sufficient for them to lose their position.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. I wasn't into anything nefarious or bad. I was a good kid growing up, but I can't imagine growing up with everything being recorded.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's probably a tense time for a lot of people, but people seem to be vocalizing and sharing more as opposed to less.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Although I suppose there's a sampling bias, because we're not hearing from the quiet ones without social media accounts.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I feel like almost everyone has a social media account now.

Matt Abrahams: What I do admire about all of this social media is how people who are younger than I am, at least, are able to manage their presence in so many different domains.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: I can barely show up dressed appropriately for a conversation. They're able to manage their presence on different platforms, some virtually, some in person, and that's an art. That's a skill, to be able to project yourself in different ways, in different venues. And again, I'm not saying be disingenuous or inauthentic, but there's a skill there.

Matt Abrahams: I coach a lot of senior leaders who I'm trying to coach to really be mindful of your presence, how you show up, what it means. And I see in my students, who are generally in their mid to late 20s, who this comes easy to them.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: This is just something they know how to do. So, I'm not bashing social media ever, but I do think that there's some skills that come with it that others could benefit from.

Andrew Huberman: Maybe that's why the younger generation is so much better at it. Because I see my peers from high school.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I see people 10 years, 20 years older than I am that seem to have an immense need to be seen on social media.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And it's part of my job which is why I do it.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But prior to that, I didn't really have social media accounts or didn't use them.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But in any case, there's no judgment from me on that.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I agree, it's a lot of cognitive load.

Matt Abrahams: It is, but they are able to switch in and out of that in a way that is hard for me and certainly hard for some of the people I work with.

Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about martial arts and running. But in particular, martial arts.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Do you think that playing a sport or engaging in martial arts can actually teach you how to be more comfortable in your physical body in a way that transfers to public speaking, one-on-one communication, small group communication, just presence, posture, and stance?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah. I enjoy the question, thank you. I don't often talk about my martial arts. I've been doing it over 40 years, and it's a very much a part of who I am, and I absolutely think what I've learned in the martial arts has helped me do better at what I do, and I think what I do has helped me be better in the martial arts. There is a presence and a connection that you need to have to do martial arts well, especially when you're working with somebody else. It gives a kind of confidence that I know I can handle myself in circumstances.

Matt Abrahams: I don't expect to be attacked, but I know that in a situation where things go sideways, that I can have some presence about myself, and that confidence is invaluable in everything I do. And martial arts is really a form of communication. I'm observing what my opponent or that my training partner is doing. I am trying to connect and anticipate the next move, but not get locked into it. It really trains your brain and your body to be responsive and to be open.

Matt Abrahams: People focus a lot on the martial, but the art side, as I get older, is what really attracts me. Art is about expression, style, connection, and that, to me, as I've matured in my training, has really become this new wealth of knowledge. Somebody said, "You've been studying the same thing for 40 years." It's not the same thing. It changes. It's multiple levels and ways of uncovering, so I think it's great.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: I think everybody should have some physical activity they do that helps them in whatever professional activity or their personal lives. You can learn so much about yourself and how to connect with others.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think there's tremendous learning in, for lack of a better term, exercise, but there's something unique about martial arts or a sport, not to say that running isn't a sport.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It can be or that resistance training isn't a sport. It can be.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But I think if people are just exercising and only viewing it through that lens, that they're not gleaning the full benefit.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I actually try and make my resistance training sessions a sort of meditation.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I don't allow myself to text or, in most cases, bring in too much other information. I'll listen to music or a podcast.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But I'm careful with that. I want to focus on what I'm doing, and I think it's great practice for cognitive pursuits.

Matt Abrahams: My running is my meditation. When I run, I might listen to something, but I really meditate. I find I'm very creative as a result of it, and when I don't do it, I miss it. One area that I like about the martial arts, at least in the styles I've trained in, they vary in terms of their activity. So some of the stuff is completely spontaneous. You're sparring. It's spontaneous. There are some rules, but you're sparring.

Matt Abrahams: And in the style I train, there are things called katas or forms, where essentially a pre-arranged dance of moves, longer, everything is scripted. And then in my style, we do these things called self-defense techniques, where you practice certain moves to get out of. Each of those is training you a different way of thinking and being, just like there are different ways of thinking and being in communication.

Matt Abrahams: Sometimes it's completely spontaneous. Sometimes I'm giving prepared remarks. Sometimes it's Q&A, where I'm saying some things I've prepared, but others I haven't. So finding vehicles to help you train in different ways, cross-training, if you will, for your communication, can really help.

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic, and I really like this idea that we need to consider the different styles of different audiences.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Along those lines, I solicited for questions from the audience on social media, and there's some terrific questions here.

Matt Abrahams: Great.

Andrew Huberman: Terrific because I know they relate to questions that many other people are sure to have as well. To kick it off, somebody asked, "Why do you think women apologize before sharing their opinions? What should they do instead?" Do you observe this?

Matt Abrahams: I see this often. Apologizing is a way of trying to connect, yet I think it can backfire. So instead of saying, "I'm sorry," or, "I didn't do work," start with something that you're confident in. And if you do need to apologize because there's something you didn't do or you need to do, have that come later.

Matt Abrahams: The way you start an interaction sets the tone for the whole interaction, and if I start by putting myself one down because I'm not prepared, or I should have done this differently, then our interaction is going to be very different. So start with something that you're comfortable with and confident in, and then if you need to apologize, apologize later. It really makes a big difference.

Andrew Huberman: I'm going to layer in an additional question. I've seen people give talks that begin with, "I didn't sleep that well last night," or, "I'm jet-lagged, so forgive me if I blank, blank, and blank."

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Basically, trying to preload the talk with maybe a buffer so that if they make a mistake, they're more protected.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It drives me crazy, but maybe I'm just crazy anyway.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: No, it bothers me, too. Andrew, my wife taught me a long time ago, I can't pre-apologize, and that's what people are trying to do. Right? And all you do in those circumstances is prime people to pay attention to whatever it is you're doing. So if I say, "I didn't sleep well," then people are going to be looking, "Oh, he's stuttering over his words. He's stumbling." You want people to focus on your message. Don't pre-apologize. Just get to what you're doing, and if something comes up, you get to decide in the moment. "Do I address it, or do I just keep going?"

Andrew Huberman: How to communicate well across cultures and accents? You talked a little bit about this earlier, but maybe we could revisit that.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: So, culture and context loom large in all communication. And when I talk about culture, I'm not just talking about country of origin. Different organizations have different cultures. Different departments within organizations have cultures. Different generations have different cultures. So we just have to be sensitive to that. Our messages have to play differently. So whenever we communicate, we have to think about who we're communicating to and the context and culture in which we're communicating.

Matt Abrahams: We live in a diverse society, in a diverse world, where we hear lots of viewpoints, lots of people from different places. Accents loom large. On my show, "Think Fast, Talk Smart," I've interviewed a lot of people who are experts in non-native speaking, and what they all tell me is, the goal of a non-native speaker is not to sound like a native speaker. It's impossible. It can't be. You're not a native speaker. Rather, focus on getting your message across. Take the pressure off of yourself.

Matt Abrahams: So what does that mean? That means I might make my point, and then what I do is I repeat it with a story, or I give an example, or I tell an analogy. It's about getting the point across, not about worrying about, I'm using exactly the right word and the right syntax? And the reality is, I don't know about you, but a lot of native speakers of English, they don't speak English so well either themselves. So I think it's all about getting your point across and using repetition and other tools to help.

Andrew Huberman: How to deal with interrupting? We have a colleague at Stanford, by the way, that told me, "If they interrupt, it's a sign of interest," which helped the interactions. But the question here is, how should we handle interruptions? We still want to make the interrupter feel heard in most cases, but sometimes it can be distracting.

Matt Abrahams: Two ways: First, set expectations up front. Setting boundaries can be helpful. So if I'm going into a situation, I might say, "I want to spend the first five minutes laying the foundation to what I'm going to say, and then I'd love to take your questions." So if the person does interrupt, they're violating an expectation that was set, and that puts you in a better position to maybe shut it down. You can say, "Thank you. I hear you're really anxious. I really want to get through this material." So setting boundaries can help. I believe one of the most useful communication tools is paraphrasing.

Matt Abrahams: Paraphrasing is where you take what somebody has said, you synthesize it, and you distill it down to something important. If somebody interrupts you, you can take the floor back by paraphrasing what they've said and moving back on. So if I'm talking about the financial implications of something, and you come in and give me your opinion, and you interrupt me, and I can say, "Cost is really important," and in fact, I just took it back from you.

Matt Abrahams: If you are somebody who wants to just share your overwhelming knowledge, and you're one of those people who bloviates, I can stop that by interrupting with a paraphrase. I can say, "That point you just made about X, really important. We're going to talk about that next on the agenda." I think paraphrasing is the most polite way to get control back, be it from an interrupter or somebody who's just talking too much.

Matt Abrahams: It can feel uncomfortable to interrupt somebody with a paraphrase, but if you're in front of a room of people or a meeting, not doing it is actually more rude to the other people than it is being rude to the person who spoke. So, paraphrasing, I think, gets you out of those circumstances.

Andrew Huberman: Someone said, "How do I prepare for a speech?" I think there's a lot that goes into that, but perhaps there's a shorter answer that you could give us, a sort of key bins of preparation.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. Let me give you a few top things. First and foremost, you have to think about who is the audience I'm speaking to? What's important and relevant to them related to the topic I want to speak on? All of us, when we communicate, suffer from the curse of knowledge and the curse of passion. We know a lot about what we're saying, and we care a lot about it, and because of that, we can make assumptions, start too deep, et cetera. First, think about your audience relative to your topic. That's number one. Number two, come up with a clear goal.

Matt Abrahams: Many of us take our audience on a journey of our discovery of what we want to say as we're saying it. We don't have a clear path. To me, a goal has three parts: information, emotion, and action. What do I want them to know? How do I want them to feel? And what do I want them to do? Once you have an understanding of your audience and your goal, then apply a structure. Don't just list and itemize information. Problem, solution, benefit. Past, present, future. What, so what, now what? There are myriad structures.

Matt Abrahams: If you do that, you will have content that's meaningful to your audience and increases the likelihood of fidelity of the communication. Then you have to practice. It's not enough to have a good message, you have to practice the delivery. If you do those things, you will give better talks, you will have better conversations, and better meetings.

Andrew Huberman: I was thinking about something a few moments ago. For people who are afraid of public speaking because they might choke or dissolve into a puddle of their own tears on stage, or freeze or whatever. Do you think it's useful? I would think it would be useful to try and think about what you want to happen as opposed to what you don't want to happen.

Matt Abrahams: That's right. That's right. A lot of people envision the worst, and they self-create that. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Imagine what the potential could be. Set yourself for that positive expectation. And it doesn't have to be, "This is going to be the best communication ever." Just be, "I'm going to add value. People are going to learn something. People won't make a mistake that I'm advising them to avoid." Just have a positive outcome in mind, and that can really help.

Matt Abrahams: So, thinking about what value is in it for you and for your audience before you communicate can really make a big difference.

Andrew Huberman: A few people asked questions that relate to interpersonal relations that you may be equipped to solve for them. But how should I win an argument without losing somebody? Is that a different podcast?

Matt Abrahams: That would be a whole different podcast. Here's what I'll tell you, though: listening is important. A lot of our arguments are over things that, that really don't exist. I've done some mediation work in my life, and the number one thing I make people do when I bring two people who disagree together is I make each listen to the other, and often the argument disappears. People didn't realize that. And the second bit of advice, I learned this from two friends of mine, and my wife and I deploy this a lot.

Matt Abrahams: When we are set up to have a disagreement, we each declare how important whatever the issue is to us is. Because we assume, if I'm really passionate about something, I assume when we're arguing that you're equally as passionate, but that's not always true. But if I come at you with my full passion, and you're not as passionate, I'm going to make you more passionate, so all of a sudden we're fighting.

Matt Abrahams: So if I want to go out to Chinese food, and my wife wants to go out to Mexican food, I might say, "For me, Chinese food is an eight, because I really have been craving it." She says, "Mexican food for me is a three today." There's no fight, there's no argument. But if she says it's an eight, and I say it's an eight, then we have the issue. So, understanding the prioritization and really listening to understand what's involved, you can mitigate a lot of the conflict that you're having.

Andrew Huberman: Somebody asked, "How do I get rid of filler words? Um, like, et cetera."

Matt Abrahams: I had a guest on my show, she's a psycholinguist, and she helped me realize that filler words are not bad. Filler words are actually helpful. They do things for us. They save the space. So if I'm not done talking, and I don't want others to interrupt, I say, "Um," and "Uh." There's research in the child development literature that says, when we speak to kids, before we say a new term or give a new idea, we will often preface it with a filler word, "um," or "uh."

Matt Abrahams: We signal what's coming next is important, and I think that's why it drives us nuts when somebody says so many filler words, because we've been trained as kids that something important follows it, and when all that follows it is another "um," we get frustrated. So the goal is not to eliminate these; the goal is to make them not distracting. In fact, playwrights and screenwriters will actually add filler words to make it sound human.

Matt Abrahams: The best way I know to reduce filler words, especially the ones that are most annoying, and those are the ones that sit in silence. So I'm done speaking, and then I start speaking again. Those are the ones that really stand out, is a breath technique.

Matt Abrahams: I learned this from somebody who has been teaching communication skills for a long, long time. His name is Jerry Weissmann, and it's called landing phrases. When we speak, we need to be pushing air out. If I am inhaling, I can't speak. I invite everybody listening and watching to try to say, "um," while inhaling. You can't do it.

Matt Abrahams: So if I train myself at the end of my sentences and phrases to land the phrase, to be out of breath, I have to inhale. Not only can I not say, "um," I can't say anything, I build in a pause. So as you speak, train yourself to land. And the reason I call it landing a phrase, it's like a gymnast who does all those flips and twirls, and then they stick the landing. So at the end of each of my phrases, I'm completely out of breath. I inhale, and then I start speaking again. You can reduce significantly the filler words.

Matt Abrahams: Now, you have to practice this, and the way I teach everybody to practice, look at your calendar or schedule every day, and once a day, read out loud everything on your schedule, and at the end of each one, land the phrase. So I might say, "Going to lunch with Andrew. Working out at the gym. Seeing my son for dinner." At the end of each one of those phrases, I've landed my phrase. I'm out of breath. I'm training myself how to do that. You'll get rid of many of your filler words.

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic. I'm going to try to do that.

Matt Abrahams: You don't have many filler words.

Andrew Huberman: I have to check some recordings of the podcast. Someone wants to know how to tell a story without turning it into a sermon.

Matt Abrahams: Ah.

Andrew Huberman: How to know when it's going on too long.

Matt Abrahams: There are two ways to answer that question. One is about time. How long does it take? My mother has a wonderful saying. She likes to say, "Tell the time, don't build the clock." Many of us are clock builders when we communicate. We say much more than we need to. So if you have to tell a story, think about what's the most critical few. In the military, they talk about bottom line up front. Get that bottom line up there. So, don't say more than you need to.

Matt Abrahams: The other part is you have to make the story engaging and relevant to the people you're talking to. A lot of people have such a preamble to get to the start. A colleague of mine likes to talk about parachuting in. Just jump right in and then build the rest of the story. A lot of us, "Well, it was a rainy day, and then it was this, and it was that, it was that." Just get to the story first. So if you parachute in, and you remind yourself to be concise and clear, you're going to tell more engaging and better stories.

Andrew Huberman: Several people asked how to ask for a raise. Hmm.

Matt Abrahams: There are several characteristics I'd like people to think about when you ask for something that you want, especially from a boss or an authority figure. First, think about context. Look at your boss's schedule before you ask for a raise. Are you the fifth meeting in a row before you go in? Maybe it's better to go tomorrow when you're early. So context matters. I have a colleague who studied parole decisions judges make, and he found that decisions are different before lunch and after lunch, even though the cases are the same.

Matt Abrahams: When you ask, you have to think about that. Second, when positioning yourself, think about from your boss's perspective, what are the criteria they would think about in terms of giving a raise? Often, we come and say, "Well, I've done this, and I've done this, and I've done this, and this colleague got that." Think about what value you have brought to them. So approach it from their perspective, and think about how you can position it so that you are demonstrating your value, again, from their perspective.

Matt Abrahams: And you should practice. You should role-play. Talk to other people. Say, "I'm thinking of saying this," just so the words come out instead of just thinking in your head what you want to say.

Andrew Huberman: Several people asked about how best to communicate with people who are not very good at communicating.

Matt Abrahams: That's a hard one. I would encourage people to lead with questions. Draw the other person out. Often, if you can get them talking about something that's important to them or connected to what you want, then you can engage in that conversation. So again, it's pre-work, it's thinking about what's of value. Lead with questions, and then as soon as the person responds, give them space to tell more. My mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk. She was amazing. She was from the Midwest.

Matt Abrahams: Every time she'd fly out to visit, she'd come off the plane with three new best friends, and her secret, and you mentioned this earlier, were three words: Tell me more. Once somebody answers a question, give them that space to say more, and that really draws them out and gives you some ideas of what's important to them, so you can latch on and talk about it more. So, lead with questions, give space for more communication. That's how you draw somebody who might be reticent or not comfortable speaking.

Andrew Huberman: Do you ever recommend people memorize speeches?

Matt Abrahams: Never. There are times where I recommend being very familiar with how you start. The point where people are most nervous about speaking is about 30 seconds before, and about a minute into what they're doing. So, you can be very familiar, but the reason memorizing is so bad is it burdens your cognitive load. You've created the right way to say it, and you're constantly comparing what you wanted to say to what you're actually saying.

Matt Abrahams: So having a roadmap, having a structure, and having some familiarity with some ideas are important. If there are certain words that you really want to get across or certain data, have a note card, read it. I'd rather you do that than put the cognitive burden on yourself of memorizing.

Andrew Huberman: We talked a little bit about this earlier, but maybe we can just recap and add anything that you want to the question that's very common here, which is, how to reduce pre-talk anxiety.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: And it could be public speaking, or it could be one-on-one communication.

Matt Abrahams: We could talk a lot about this, and when you were on my show, Andrew, we talked about some of the biological things you can do. When it comes to managing anxiety, you have to manage both symptoms and sources. The symptoms are the things you physiologically experience. You have shared great advice on breathing, et cetera. I'll give one example: When I get really nervous, I perspire and blush. A great way to manage that is to cool yourself down. The reason you're perspiring and blushing is your heart rate's going up, your body's tensing up. It's like when you exercise. The palms of your hand are thermoregulators for your body.

Matt Abrahams: Anybody who's ever held warm coffee or tea on a cold morning has felt themselves warm up. I will always hold something cold before I speak, and it helps cool me down.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

Matt Abrahams: I blush and perspire less. So there are things we can do to manage physical symptoms. The breathwork that you talk about is really helpful. But we also have to think about sources, the things that initiate and exacerbate our anxiety. I'll give one example. Many of us are made nervous by the goal that we have. I advocate for having a goal when you communicate, but sometimes that goal makes us nervous.

Matt Abrahams: My students are afraid they're not going to get a good grade. The entrepreneurs I coach are afraid they're not going to get funding. The people listening might be afraid their boss isn't going to support their idea. So we're made nervous by a potential negative future outcome. So, the way to counteract that is to become present-oriented. Lots of ways to do that. You can do deep breathing, you can walk around the building, have a conversation with somebody. I tell people, "Do what athletes do. Listen to a song or a playlist that helps you get focused."

Matt Abrahams: Start at 100 and count backward by a challenging number. Like, try seventeens. Really helps to focus and be present-oriented. My favorite way, and this is going to sound really silly, I like to say tongue twisters out loud. You can't say a tongue twister right and not be present-oriented, and it warms up your voice. It's an opportunity to warm up. So before I ever do any of my podcast interviews or a big talk, I will say a tongue twister out loud three times fast, and it gets me present and warms me up.

Matt Abrahams: So, to manage anxiety, you have to manage symptoms and some of the things that initiate and exacerbate. There are a whole bunch of those, and if you do it, you begin to create for yourself an anxiety management plan, and you can invoke that plan. And actually, just having that plan helps reduce the anxiety you have. The very first thing we do in my strategic communication class is we have our students create an anxiety management plan.

Matt Abrahams: And not only does it help them in the course. I have students years later say, "My grandmother passed away. I used the anxiety management plan to help with the eulogy," or, "I'm doing a best man toast, and I'm using it." Giving yourself tools to help manage anxiety is one of the biggest gifts you can give to yourself.

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic.

Matt Abrahams: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: These are incredible bits and, frankly, entire meals of advice for people. Public communication and just one-on-one communication and everything in between is so important, and people really carry around a lot of fear and anxiety about them, but you've given us a ton of practical tools, and I know these are time-tested, and there are data on many of them.

Matt Abrahams: Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Andrew Huberman: And the real-world data are really what count the most.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Andrew Huberman: So I want to thank you for coming here today to share them with us, also for the books that you've written. We'll put links to those in the show note captions, and that you continue to get out there and on here as a public educator. There are many people and books talking about these topics, but you've clearly thrown yourself into these as the guy who's really tackling them for the greater good.

Andrew Huberman: So, I really appreciate the breadth and specificity of what you've shared, and I know everyone else will as well, and I know that they're going to apply them. So, my goal was to do this outro without saying "um" once. I guess I just said "um."

Matt Abrahams: You did it well. Thank you. Very fluent.

Andrew Huberman: Come back again.

Matt Abrahams: I'd love to. Thank you.

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Matt Abrahams. To learn more about his work and to find links to the various resources we discussed, please see the show note caption. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the Follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

Andrew Huberman: Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, guests, or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."

Andrew Huberman: This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There, you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best.

Andrew Huberman: Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our "Neural Network Newsletter," the "Neural Network Newsletter" is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost.

Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Matt Abrahams. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.